Do people understand the trinity doctrine?

[sojourner]

It specifically says Jesus sits at the right hand of God.

Two Gods in Heaven at the same time. Not monotheism.

Either Jesus isn't a God, or we have a Pagan trinity.

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One God; two persons. Monotheism.

 

[sojourner]

NOT SO.

Jesus - according to you folks - is supposed to be a earthly enfleshed - part - of God. Three in ONE.

When the Bible says two separate beings are in heaven together - it tosses out the trinity idea.

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The Son and the Father are one Being -- according to the Trinity doctrine. Therefore, there is only one Being in heaven together.

 

[sojourner]

Elohim means God.

Elohim is plural. Gods.

it means the same thing as YHWH.

Not really. They both refer to Deity, but with different concepts.

 

[Desert Snake]

Elohim is plural. Gods.

Any plurality in translation is inconsequential to the actual Deity reference.

Not really. They both refer to Deity, but with different concepts.

Care to explain? This is a completely foreign idea to me. To my understanding, they are used vice-versa, it is referring to the same Deity.

 

[sojourner]

Do people understand the trinity doctrine?

People don't need to understand trinity, it is a false doctrine. Moses, Jesus and Mary did not believe in it.
Regards

How is it a "false doctrine?" Why do Moses, Jesus and Mary need to "believe" in it in order for it to be true? The doctrine faithfully presents a valid construction for an understanding of God.

 

[sojourner]

Any plurality in translation is inconsequential to the actual Deity reference.


Care to explain? This is a completely foreign idea to me. To my understanding, they are used vice-versa, it is referring to the same Deity.

They aren't used "interchangeably." One writer refers to Deity as YHVH. A different writer refers to Deity as Elohim. They are different writers with different concepts of God.

 

[lostwanderingsoul]

the Father and Son are not one being but they are both parts of one God because the word God is like the word family. in fact "God" is a family containing the Father and Son.there is only one God family but it has more than one member of that family. some day that family will contain many more members because the Bible says that to those who believe God gives the power to become His children. right now it is just the two members. there is no third (trinity) member because God is a spirit and that spirit is holy so God is the Holy Spirit.

 

[Ingledsva]

Can you be a bit more specific? It would be nice to know what you do believe.

I'm an Agnostic Heathen Asatruar.

I have no problem with there being a God, - however, - so far there has been no evidence of any God.

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[Ingledsva]

This quotation seems to capture the development well. What's interesting is that a doctrine was needed for the sake of truth and unity. At the centre of the controversy was the person of Christ and his authority. The difficulty with establishing a doctrine based on the person of Jesus is that faith and revelation determine your response. It is not established by reason alone. It's easy enough to look at Jesus as a human and say that he walked, talked, felt hunger, pain etc but it's harder to see through the flesh and recognise the Spirit of God at work. Jesus said to Martha, 'I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?'

The question posed by Jesus is aimed at each one of us. To believe in Jesus Christ, as the Son of God, is to believe that the Spirit of God was present in Jesus. You are not focused on BELIEF IN HIS HUMANITY but on BELIEF IN GOD. Nor was the Spirit of God in Jesus some watered down version of the Father. It was the same spirit as that of the Father. Again, the Holy Spirit given to believers, called the baptism of Jesus Christ, is the same spirit.

I can understand why it was hard for Jews to come to terms with this revelation regarding Jesus Christ, but the truth is that salvation is only possible if God enters the earthly arena. God does not stop being God by entering into a tabernacle.

So why have you folks been calling those of us pointing out this fact, - that here is no Trinity doctrine in the Bible, - false and liars?

Also as stated, it pops up in the 4th century after Pagan contact, - most of which have Sacred Threesomes.

So why should Jews or anyone else accept this later made up trinity idea?

Jesus never said he was God.

Jesus never taught the trinity doctrine.

It is not in the Bible - it is made up.

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[Ingledsva]

Elohim means God. Have you asked about this in the Judaism DIR? Elohim is used solely at various places in the Bible, it means the same thing as YHWH. The verses translated thusly to give one an impression otherwise, are either completely off, ie 'God amongst gods', does not actually mean God amongst kings, or, Elohim and any variant is explicitly designated as who/what it is referring to. For an example, I would say, 'I worship God'. I would also say, 'Thor is a god'.
We know that I am not referring to Thor, when I say that I worship God. We know this, because what I am saying, is in context to the beliefs. The Scriptures, whether Jewish or Xian, are written under the same concept/context.

I thought I should give more information concerning Theos and Elohiym, for clarification.

Theos and Elohiym can mean God.

However, they also mean Chosen of God, Magistrates/Judges, Godly, etc. You can look up the translations in your Strong's.

Thus we have the Priests using Theos with Jesus (Meaning Magistrate/Judge) - and him confirming that by quoting a Tanakh text about Magistrates/Judges (Elohiym).

For instance - in Exo 21: 6 the word translated JUDGES - is ELOHIYM in the Hebrew. Same with JUDGES in Exo 22:8-9, and 1 Sa 2:25 JUDGES is actually Elohiym.

He was claiming to be the awaited Jewish MESSIAH, in rank/power over all of them, the Magistrate/Judge, that brings about the end, and then JUDGES ALL whom wait in Sheol/grave.

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[Ingledsva]

One God; two persons. Monotheism.

No-way!

To say God can be three beings in one, is one thing. - To say these three separate beings hang around together, at the same time, while three separate beings, - puts the FALSE to the idea.

As does one of them praying to, and pleading with another, prove it false.

More than ONE God in Heaven at a time is not Monotheism.

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[Ingledsva]

They aren't used "interchangeably." One writer refers to Deity as YHVH. A different writer refers to Deity as Elohim. They are different writers with different concepts of God.

Actually YHVH is the name we are told to call God in Tanakh.

Elohiym and Theos just mean God in the generic.

They also mean Godly, Magistrate/Judges, The Chosen of God, etc.

In other words - Judges, Priests, and Kings were Elohiym.

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[sojourner]

To say God can be three beings in one, is one thing. - To say these three separate beings hang around together, at the same time, while three separate beings, - puts the FALSE to the idea.

That's not what the doctrine says. The doctrine says three Persons -- one Being. God is three Persons yet one Being. Your rebuttal is a straw man, because you're refuting what the doctrine clearly does not say.

 

[sojourner]

As does one of them praying to, and pleading with another, prove it false.

Since the doctrine also says that Jesus is fully human, as well as fully Divine, it is possible (and expected) for Jesus, being fully human, to pray to the Father.

More than ONE God in Heaven at a time is not Monotheism.

There isn't more than one God in heaven, since the doctrine states that there is one God, three Persons.

 

[sojourner]

Actually YHVH is the name we are told to call God in Tanakh.

According to the Yahwist writer, yes. The Elohist has different ideas.

 

[Ingledsva]

Since the doctrine also says that Jesus is fully human, as well as fully Divine, it is possible (and expected) for Jesus, being fully human, to pray to the Father.

There isn't more than one God in heaven, since the doctrine states that there is one God, three Persons.

No it is not logical for him to pray to himself.


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[paarsurrey]

How is it a "false doctrine?" Why do Moses, Jesus and Mary need to "believe" in it in order for it to be true? The doctrine faithfully presents a valid construction for an understanding of God.

Moses, Jesus and Mary are persons of significance for Christians. If they did not need to believe in Trinity then it is a superfluous and fabricated creed invented only to confuse the Christians.
Regards

 

[Ingledsva]

According to the Yahwist writer, yes. The Elohist has different ideas.

No - we have one Tanakh - in which YHVH tells the people to call him YHVH - and states that that is his name.

Elohiym - Theos - and God - are all the same - and can be applied to any God as they JUST MEAN GOD.

The Elohiym of the Hebrew is named YHVH.

Exo 3:4 And when YHVH saw that he turned aside to see, God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said, Moses, Moses. And he said, Here am I.

Exo 3:15 And Elohiym said to Moses again, You shall say this to the sons of Israel, YHVH, the Elohiym of your fathers, the Elohiym of Abraham, the Elohiym of Isaac, and the Elohiym of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever, and this is how I should be remembered from generation to generation.

Exo 3:16 Go and gather the elders of Israel together, and say unto them, YHVH the Elohiym of your fathers, the Elohiym of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, hath appeared to me, saying, I have indeed visited you, and seen that which is done unto you in Egypt;

 

[Ingledsva]

That's not what the doctrine says. The doctrine says three Persons -- one Being. God is three Persons yet one Being. Your rebuttal is a straw man, because you're refuting what the doctrine clearly does not say.

No, but turning ONE God into three beings that exist and hang around together, all at the same time, is.

Two separate Gods sitting on thrones in Heaven at the same time, is.

This is a total warping of the God YHVH.

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[Ingledsva]

The Son and the Father are one Being -- according to the Trinity doctrine. Therefore, there is only one Being in heaven together.

Nope.

"Supposedly" for you folks, - this "ONE" God is three for specific purposes - such as Jesus.

Why logically - would this ONE God need to remain two Gods when back in heaven?

That does not compute

It shows it to be false doctrine.

Jesus only claimed to be the awaited Jewish Messiah, - whom brings the end - and Judges those in Sheol.

As this Messiah he gets a special throne beside God. He is not God in this story.

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