Do Some Believe that Christianity was "Founded" By St. Paul?

[Coder]

Hi, in discussions someone indicated that they believe that Christianity was more or less founded/propagated by St. Paul (or Paul for non-Christians) and that his letters preceded the Books that Christians refer to as the Gospels. I believe that the Roman Empire had a significant influence on the terminology and externals of Christian liturgy and I would like to explore and learn more about St. Paul's role in Christianity and how this understanding might help us better understand Christianity. I invite Jewish thought on the topic as I am learning much here, but welcome all posters of course.

 

[Kemosloby]

That's just a rediculous idea. Paul in one of his letters describes the other Apostles, the actual disciples of Christ like Peter as "Super Apostles" as compared to himself. But his teachings were from Christ, so considered his teaching of no less value than the Super Apostles. Paul also worked harder than any other Apostle, trying to make up for his persecution of Christians. But Jesus was the founder , head and cornerstone, of Christianity.

 

[McBell]

Hi, in discussions someone indicated that they believe that Christianity was more or less founded/propagated by St. Paul (or Paul for non-Christians) and that his letters preceded the Books that Christians refer to as the Gospels. I believe that the Roman Empire had a significant influence on the terminology and externals of Christian liturgy and I would like to explore and learn more about St. Paul's role in Christianity and how this understanding might help us better understand Christianity. I invite Jewish thought on the topic as I am learning much here, but welcome all posters of course.

I can't say that I have ever heard that Paul founded Christianity.
I have, on the other hand, heard numerous times "many who call themselves Christians are not Christians, they are Paulists/Paulites"

 

[savagewind]

That's just a rediculous idea. Paul in one of his letters describes the other Apostles, the actual disciples of Christ like Peter as "Super Apostles" as compared to himself. But his teachings were from Christ, so considered his teaching of no less value than the Super Apostles. Paul also worked harder than any other Apostle, trying to make up for his persecution of Christians. But Jesus was the founder , head and cornerstone, of Christianity.

I do not think he was referring to the real apostles when he called those men super. Is it not sarcasm he was using?

 

[Kemosloby]

I do not think he was referring to the real apostles when he called those men super. Is it not sarcasm he was using?

2 Cor 11:5
For if someone comes and proclaims a Jesus other than the One we proclaimed, or if you receive a different spirit than the One you received, or a different gospel than the one you accepted, you put up with it way too easily. I consider myself in no way inferior to those“super-apostles.” Although I am not a polished speaker, I am certainly not lacking in knowledge. We have made this clear to you in every way possible.…

 

[McBell]

I do not think he was referring to the real apostles when he called those men super. Is it not sarcasm he was using?

Sarcasm?
Did they even have sarcasm back then?

 

[Coder]

...But Jesus was the founder , head and cornerstone, of Christianity.

I understand that's the general Christian belief, that's why I put quotes around "founded".

There are also perspectives by some (even biblical scholars) that a.) who Jesus is, may have been misconstrued or b.) that Jesus is a mythical figure. Some think that such were for political and/or other reasons:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/master_file/jesusmyth.htm
https://beyondallreligion.net/2012/01/21/how-christianity-was-invented/
https://ehrmanblog.org/did-jesus-exist-the-birth-of-a-divine-man-for-members/
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/paul.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory

Even a Priest:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory#Thomas_L._Brodie

 

[David1967]

Hi, in discussions someone indicated that they believe that Christianity was more or less founded/propagated by St. Paul (or Paul for non-Christians) and that his letters preceded the Books that Christians refer to as the Gospels. I believe that the Roman Empire had a significant influence on the terminology and externals of Christian liturgy and I would like to explore and learn more about St. Paul's role in Christianity and how this understanding might help us better understand Christianity. I invite Jewish thought on the topic as I am learning much here, but welcome all posters of course.

No. But some denominations seem to put more emphasis on the writings of Paul than on the sayings of Jesus.

 

[savagewind]

Sarcasm?
Did they even have sarcasm back then?

I think you are being funny and I suppose with that post you are half way there. I 'm kidding or maybe I mean my troll is kidding. I think sarcasm existed way, way back there.

Paul might have been too serious a man to use it. I had thought that because it is written "those" apostles, I thought he was referring to the ones coming with a different gospel that some people might have been welcoming as eminent ones. 2 Corinthians 11:4 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the Spirit you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough.

 

[Kemosloby]

I understand that's the general Christian belief, that's why I put quotes around "founded".

There are also perspectives by some (even biblical scholars) that a.) who Jesus is, may have been misconstrued or b.) that Jesus is a mythical figure. Some think that such were for political and/or other reasons:

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/master_file/jesusmyth.htm
https://beyondallreligion.net/2012/01/21/how-christianity-was-invented/
https://ehrmanblog.org/did-jesus-exist-the-birth-of-a-divine-man-for-members/
http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/paul.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory

Even a Priest:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christ_myth_theory#Thomas_L._Brodie

If you notice in Pauls letter, people had come along trying to teach a different Gospel and a different Jesus since the beginning. They might call themselves biblical scholars, priests, popes , angels or even God himself, but as Paul said, if anyone comes teaching anything different let them be accursed. Read the bible for yourself.

 

[Coder]

Hi,

...but as Paul said, if anyone comes teaching anything different let them be accursed. Read the bible for yourself.

Yes, yes, I understand that. I am going deeper. Anyone could write that if they had motives. The Roman Empire wanted a unified belief system. People making a living from preaching (which I think St. Paul did, to some extent) may not want "competition"... For those that question the authenticity of (some or all of) the Bible, quoting the Bible is generally not going to address much.

If anything, your answer could lend credence to the affirmative answer to the original question of this thread. You are showing that St. Paul is "the " voice of "the authority" on who Jesus is - this is very much in line with a "founder" (again not founder in the same sense as those who believe Jesus is the founder).

 

[Kemosloby]

No. But some denominations seem to put more emphasis on the writings of Paul than on the sayings of Jesus.

Pauls writing are more focused on faith than keeping the law

Hi,


Yes, yes, I understand that. I am going deeper. Anyone could write that if they had motives. The Roman Empire wanted a unified belief system. People making a living from preaching (which I think St. Paul did, to some extent) may not want "competition"... For those that question the authenticity of (some or all of) the Bible, quoting the Bible is generally not going to address much.

If anything, your answer could lend credence to the affirmative answer to the original question of this thread. You are showing that St. Paul is "the " voice of "the authority" on who Jesus is - this is very much in line with a "founder" (again not founder in the same sense as those who believe Jesus is the founder).

Actually Paul was the least motivated by money. In many of his letter he points out that he didn't want any money, he funded his own preaching and even continued to work as a tent maker. Paul was accepted by the "Super Apostles", Paul even convinced Peter that Gentiles should not be required to keep the law of Moses. So Paul was recognized by the other Apostles.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Hi, in discussions someone indicated that they believe that Christianity was more or less founded/propagated by St. Paul (or Paul for non-Christians) and that his letters preceded the Books that Christians refer to as the Gospels. I believe that the Roman Empire had a significant influence on the terminology and externals of Christian liturgy and I would like to explore and learn more about St. Paul's role in Christianity and how this understanding might help us better understand Christianity. I invite Jewish thought on the topic as I am learning much here, but welcome all posters of course.

I think there's merit to the idea that Paul founded what we know as Christianity today.

I see Paul's relationship to Christianity as that of Ray Kroc's relationship to McDonald's: yes, he built on what others started, but he took it off in a completely new direction and is more responsible for its success and ultimate dominance than the founders are.

 

[savagewind]

Pauls writing are more focused on faith than keeping the law

Actually Paul was the least motivated by money. In many of his letter he points out that he didn't want any money, he funded his own preaching and even continued to work as a tent maker. Paul was accepted by the "Super Apostles", Paul even convinced Peter that Gentiles should not be required to keep the law of Moses. So Paul was recognized by the other Apostles.

I thought that only those whom Jesus chose are called apostles.
Two only were chosen after Jesus' death. That is what I thought.
There were only ever fourteen of them.

 

[Coder]

.
I have, on the other hand, heard numerous times "many who call themselves Christians are not Christians, they are Paulists/Paulites"

Interesting. St. Paul himself seemed to be aware of this: 1 Corinthians 1:12

His self-consciousness regarding this may be "interesting" e.g. in relation to my question in this thread. Could this also be a sign of that he himself knew he was "carrying the ball" too much, and how do we know this does not possibly relate to some of the Christianity myth theories?

 

[Coder]

Actually Paul was the least motivated by money.

1 Corinthians 9:11 (My earlier comment was just an example of one possible motive that people can have). It may seem interesting though: The Gospels seem very official about the 12 Apostles. Suddenly, there is a new Apostle who teaches that slaves should obey their masters, the Romans should be obeyed and Roman civil authority comes from God, wives should submit to their husbands, women should not teach, and we can reap a material harvest from you. Some of that also relates to my comment about Roman influence in Christianity. Also interesting, how relatively little record there seems to be about the work of the 12 official Apostles, compared to St. Paul's books in the Bible.

 

[Coder]

Paul even convinced Peter that Gentiles should not be required to keep the law of Moses.

Another possible influence and/or compromise with the Roman Empire? You might want to see my thread on the Trinity. I propose that some of the Bible is "Judaism for Roman Empire pagans".
http://www.religiousforums.com/threads/the-oneness-of-god-non-trinitarian-view.191734/

 

[fallingblood]

Hi, in discussions someone indicated that they believe that Christianity was more or less founded/propagated by St. Paul (or Paul for non-Christians) and that his letters preceded the Books that Christians refer to as the Gospels. I believe that the Roman Empire had a significant influence on the terminology and externals of Christian liturgy and I would like to explore and learn more about St. Paul's role in Christianity and how this understanding might help us better understand Christianity. I invite Jewish thought on the topic as I am learning much here, but welcome all posters of course.

Paul was just one cog in a massive thing.

His letters are the earliest Christian writings that we know of. He is the first writer that we know of who put pen to paper and related what would be Christian ideas. However, Paul was working within a structured system.

Paul was working with the Jerusalem Sect, which was led by the brother of Jesus, James, as well as Peter. In a way, one could say that he worked for them. Paul had to abide by their rules and regulations, and was granted the chance to spread the message to Gentiles.

He wasn't the only one witnessing to Gentiles though. He speaks of other groups who were also witnessing to Gentiles, and often that caused problems.

The big importance with Paul is that he left a written account. He left something that people deemed important enough to put the effort into recording and passing on from generation to generation.

Later writers though disagreed with Paul. In the Pastoral Epistles, Titus and 1 and 2 Timothy, someone writing in the name of Paul (it wasn't actually Paul), wrote ideas that contradicted Paul's own ideas. And that wasn't uncommon. Paul wasn't scripture, so people could disagree with him, and we are left with a few of those writings.

 

[Kemosloby]

I thought that only those whom Jesus chose are called apostles.
Two only were chosen after Jesus' death. That is what I thought.
There were only ever fourteen of them.

Yeah, the original 12, the replacement for Judas, and Paul by special appointment by Christ. This article looks right and biblical
https://gotquestions.org/apostleship.html

 

[Deidre]

I have read that many Christians do feel that Paul had a tremendous influence on the Christianity many practice today, but I think that's a matter of interpretation.