Do we actually have a choice in...anything?

[A-bear]

So...I've been doing a lot of thinking about concept like free will and predestination lately, and the conclusions that I've reached in my mind have kind of had a negative impact on my outlook on life in general. I hate the conclusions I've made - I want to be proved wrong - but nobody that I've talked to in real life has been able to help me (most don't even understand my points), so I thought I'd bring my thoughts here.

Feel free to disagree, or tear my views apart (but I guess that's the point of a discussion forum anyway).

Here is what I'm thinking. I will give my views on free will (or lack thereof) in 2 scenarios. The first scenario will be if the world/universe was created by a single God (such as the God of the bible). The second scenario will be if there is no God, or gods, or any power other than the forces of nature in the universe.

1) If There Is A God

If there is a God, and He is all powerful, all knowing, all good, all loving etc (again, such as in the bible), then that God, as a part of His perfect, all-knowing nature, must know what fate will befall each and every one of us, along with the exact steps we will take to reach that predetermined fate. I firmly believe that God couldn't be God if He couldn't peform a simple trick like looking forward into the future. God is, after all, timeless. He also wrote the rules for the universe as we know it; if He doesn't know how His own creation is going to play out in advance, He cannot be all-knowing.

So, if there is some force out there that knows exactly how our lives are going to play out (in my opinion, since this hypothetical God is "perfect," he must even know how every single specific aspect of our lives will unfold), that must mean that there is a very specific formula that all of our lives will follow, and there is nothing that any of us can do about it. Even though to us it feels like we are conscious and making decisions daily, the fact that there is a God up there who knows exactly what choices we are going to make before we make them means that we only believe we have free will. To us, it feels like we have free will. But in reality we're all just part of a big master plan that God is either conducting, or observing (while still knowing the results).

2) If There Isn't a God

Again, much of this is highly opinionated and fueled by my own personal intuition. I'd appreciate any corrections you have to my ideas.

If there isn't a God or any other similar supernatural force, and the universe simply "is," then we are nothing special. We, as humans, are only a product of the forces of nature, composed of the same pieces of matter that build every other object in the universe. We are just huge chemical reactions. Through the phenomenon of our own perceived consciousness, we believe that we have the ability to think for ourselves and make choices. However, since there is no higher power in the universe, we are no more special than the dirt on which we walk. From the instant the universe started, a gigantic chemical reaction began taking place. We are a product of this reaction, we are a reactant in this reaction, and we are limited by the materials we are composed of - our bodies are like computers that take in information, process that information, and react accordingly. Just like in scenario one, we believe that we have some control over our fate, but in actuality, due to the unbending laws of nature, the universe from the beginning was bound to play out one specific way.


I'm new to this whole forum thing, so I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong place or did something wrong. Thanks in advance for any responses.

 

[Gharib]

Welcome to RF A-bear you have come to the right place. you have really been thinking about this, it shows.

i myself am a muslim, meaning that i believe in the predestination of God, the good of it and the badof it and i also believe that humans have free will.

i would like to give you some examples of how free will and predestination work and feel free to disagree with me.

my first example is the car.
the manufacturer who makes the car also sets the maximum speed limit just as easy as he can set the minimum speed limit to be 50 kph. you as the driver can freely say that the maximum speed limit is part of Gods decree, you have nothing to do with it. however, whether you do 100kph on an 80 zone or you do 60 on that 80 zone you are responsible all the while the manufacturer (or God) knows that the car can go more in a certain speed zone if you the driver wish to speed.

i hope that makes sense, i know you might have a problem connecting this to real human life but let me know what you think.

a human example would be something like this:
God has set the maximum limit of food intake for 24 hours, you have no control over that. however it is your choice to now eat until you reach that limit and vomit from overeating or eat how much you need to get rid of hunger. but since God knows the future he knows what your decision will be. you can wish you could eat over the limit but you just can't thats where the decree of God comes in.

 

[Sunstone]

We have choice in the most commonly accepted meaning of the word "choice". But do we have free will?

It seems the notion we have free will would imply that something in us -- a spirit, a soul -- is an uncaused causal agent. Yet there is both no evidence for such a thing, and all the evidence we have so far amassed indicates that everything that goes on in us is caused.

 

[Photonic]

Well, the very idea of free will violates causality.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I would tell you to check out Buddhism, but I don't like to proselytize. I will say this, though, there doesn't have to be an all powerful creator god, or free will, for life to be meaningful. Spirituality is still important, and even though determinism is probably true (at least in a philosophical and scientific sense), you can still make choices, and have those choices be meaningful. God, as is commonly understood in the west, isn't the be-all, end-all of religion. There are many other choices out there. The most important thing is for you to use your reason, use logic, and use your experiences. Keep looking, you'll find the answers you're looking for. It might take some time and effort, but they'll come. Like a Zen master once said, it's not so much about achieving the goal, but about enjoying the journey. Hope that helps.

 

[Prophet]

So...I've been doing a lot of thinking about concept like free will and predestination lately, and the conclusions that I've reached in my mind have kind of had a negative impact on my outlook on life in general. I hate the conclusions I've made - I want to be proved wrong - but nobody that I've talked to in real life has been able to help me (most don't even understand my points), so I thought I'd bring my thoughts here.

Feel free to disagree, or tear my views apart (but I guess that's the point of a discussion forum anyway).

Here is what I'm thinking. I will give my views on free will (or lack thereof) in 2 scenarios. The first scenario will be if the world/universe was created by a single God (such as the God of the bible). The second scenario will be if there is no God, or gods, or any power other than the forces of nature in the universe.

1) If There Is A God

If there is a God, and He is all powerful, all knowing, all good, all loving etc (again, such as in the bible), then that God, as a part of His perfect, all-knowing nature, must know what fate will befall each and every one of us, along with the exact steps we will take to reach that predetermined fate. I firmly believe that God couldn't be God if He couldn't peform a simple trick like looking forward into the future. God is, after all, timeless. He also wrote the rules for the universe as we know it; if He doesn't know how His own creation is going to play out in advance, He cannot be all-knowing.

So, if there is some force out there that knows exactly how our lives are going to play out (in my opinion, since this hypothetical God is "perfect," he must even know how every single specific aspect of our lives will unfold), that must mean that there is a very specific formula that all of our lives will follow, and there is nothing that any of us can do about it. Even though to us it feels like we are conscious and making decisions daily, the fact that there is a God up there who knows exactly what choices we are going to make before we make them means that we only believe we have free will. To us, it feels like we have free will. But in reality we're all just part of a big master plan that God is either conducting, or observing (while still knowing the results).

2) If There Isn't a God

Again, much of this is highly opinionated and fueled by my own personal intuition. I'd appreciate any corrections you have to my ideas.

If there isn't a God or any other similar supernatural force, and the universe simply "is," then we are nothing special. We, as humans, are only a product of the forces of nature, composed of the same pieces of matter that build every other object in the universe. We are just huge chemical reactions. Through the phenomenon of our own perceived consciousness, we believe that we have the ability to think for ourselves and make choices. However, since there is no higher power in the universe, we are no more special than the dirt on which we walk. From the instant the universe started, a gigantic chemical reaction began taking place. We are a product of this reaction, we are a reactant in this reaction, and we are limited by the materials we are composed of - our bodies are like computers that take in information, process that information, and react accordingly. Just like in scenario one, we believe that we have some control over our fate, but in actuality, due to the unbending laws of nature, the universe from the beginning was bound to play out one specific way.


I'm new to this whole forum thing, so I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong place or did something wrong. Thanks in advance for any responses.

The omniscience of God is a poor rationale for belief in predestination. If God does have an all-encompassing knowledge of the universe, it would make sense that this knowledge is based upon the universe and not the other way around.

If that is unclear, think of it this way. If God knew I was going to type this message, it was because I was going to write the message. I didn't write this message because God knew it. While this view is still a bit philosophically untenable in my opinion, it is definitely an improvement in the understanding of causality over predestination.

I would say instead that God knows nothing until there something to know. I believe God has no idea what we are going to do.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

“If the soul’s actions are not controlled by rules, that can only mean the soul acts randomly. On the other hand, if your soul is guided by rules, which in turn guide you, then you have no free will. You are programmed. There is no in between; your life is either random or predetermined. Which is it?”

 

[theirreverentconcubine]

This is how it is done: you invent a superhero. You become the superhero.

That is will. Forget about "free," forget about "meaning," forget about somebody else's philosophy. Go to a mirror, scope out who you see and what you see that person becoming; then get on it.

 

[Willamena]

This is how it is done: you invent a superhero. You become the superhero.

That is will. Forget about "free," forget about "meaning," forget about somebody else's philosophy. Go to a mirror, scope out who you see and what you see that person becoming; then get on it.

This.

 

[Revoltingest]

I believe that I have choice.
But I've no idea whether or not I have any choice in the matter.

 

[Willamena]

I believe that I have choice.
But I've no idea whether or not I have any choice in the matter.

Interesting choice of belief.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

This reminds me of a Zen story, if you guys will indulge me for a moment.

There was a General in Japan, who was wanting to lead his army to war. But his army were superstitious, and believed that fate was against them. His army was smaller, but he knew that they had the ability to defeat the opposing force. So he, knowing they were superstitious and believed in fate, called them all together. He said, "I'll flip a coin. If it lands on this side, we go to war. If it lands on this other side, we do not go to war. After we make our decision, there is no turning back. The gods have spoken." This seemed good to the army, and the General flipped the coin. It landed on the side that indicated that they were to go to war. With smaller numbers, the army still pulled off an impressive defeat of the opposition. The General's aid remarked, "it looks like fate and the gods were on our side." The General said, "yes, yes they were," and tossed the coin down on a table, and walked out of the room. The aid picked up the coin, flipped it over, and noticed that it was double sided.

 

[Gharib]

This reminds me of a Zen story, if you guys will indulge me for a moment.

There was a General in Japan, who was wanting to lead his army to war. But his army were superstitious, and believed that fate was against them. His army was smaller, but he knew that they had the ability to defeat the opposing force. So he, knowing they were superstitious and believed in fate, called them all together. He said, "I'll flip a coin. If it lands on this side, we go to war. If it lands on this other side, we do not go to war. After we make our decision, there is no turning back. The gods have spoken." This seemed good to the army, and the General flipped the coin. It landed on the side that indicated that they were to go to war. With smaller numbers, the army still pulled off an impressive defeat of the opposition. The General's aid remarked, "it looks like fate and the gods were on our side." The General said, "yes, yes they were," and tossed the coin down on a table, and walked out of the room. The aid picked up the coin, flipped it over, and noticed that it was double sided.

nice story i like it.

 

[A-bear]

The omniscience of God is a poor rationale for belief in predestination. If God does have an all-encompassing knowledge of the universe, it would make sense that this knowledge is based upon the universe and not the other way around.

If that is unclear, think of it this way. If God knew I was going to type this message, it was because I was going to write the message. I didn't write this message because God knew it. While this view is still a bit philosophically untenable in my opinion, it is definitely an improvement in the understanding of causality over predestination.

I would say instead that God knows nothing until there something to know. I believe God has no idea what we are going to do.

I don't see omniscience as the sole rationale for predestination. I believe I addressed my full belief in my original message. Assuming God actually created the universe from nothing, and designed it to work in a certain way, if we combine this fact with his (presumed) infinite knowledge and omniscience, how could God in fact, be God if he didn't know exactly how his creation would play out the instant he created it?

But perhaps I'm too influenced by my own Christian roots. Now that I think about it, I suppose if "God" was somehow powerful enough to create us, but not powerful enough to supercede time or smart enough to calculate the results of all of his creation, this could leave room for a universe where what plays out is up to us, especially if this "God" programmed into us things like "souls," which are unexplainable by the laws of nature and thereby make us above nature in some way (over nature's influence).

 

[A-bear]

I would tell you to check out Buddhism, but I don't like to proselytize. I will say this, though, there doesn't have to be an all powerful creator god, or free will, for life to be meaningful. Spirituality is still important, and even though determinism is probably true (at least in a philosophical and scientific sense), you can still make choices, and have those choices be meaningful. God, as is commonly understood in the west, isn't the be-all, end-all of religion. There are many other choices out there. The most important thing is for you to use your reason, use logic, and use your experiences. Keep looking, you'll find the answers you're looking for. It might take some time and effort, but they'll come. Like a Zen master once said, it's not so much about achieving the goal, but about enjoying the journey. Hope that helps.

I'm jealous of your world view, then. As of now, I can't rationalize the point of my existence without some kind of higher power, and I can't rationalize the point of my existence with some kind of higher power.

But I believe your last statements ring true. I grew up in a extremely christian household, and I'm still struggling to break my mind free of all of its childish/unfounded beliefs. Perhaps I just need to open my mind to the idea that there are more possibilities than "God" or "No God." Perhaps there is some kind of in between...

I appreciate your thoughtful response.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

You'll never be free until you become self-aware.

 

[kerravon]

I'm jealous of your world view, then. As of now, I can't rationalize the point of my existence without some kind of higher power, and I can't rationalize the point of my existence with some kind of higher power.

Take the model of the universe as that of a computer simulation (like Sim City or Pacman or whatever you're familiar with). God is running the software (same way a human would) and the software may provide facilities for him to interact. If you (and others like you) didn't exist, what would you expect God to do for entertainment? Would you or he prefer a different computer simulation to this one? Can you specifically outline your preference? Do you play computer games yourself for entertainment? If so, maybe you really were made in God's image, just like the characters in Sim City?

Computers are inherently deterministic machines - there's nothing random about them, although when you're playing Sim City, the software is too complex with pseudo random numbers for you to know what's going to happen everywhere, even though you are God. With enough effort you can find out how the software works and be able to predict the future, but normally people just play the game.

So if you are a character in a computer simulation, and what you do is predictable with enough effort - why does that cause you to be depressed? YOU don't know what is going to happen, so it's all a mystery how it is going to play out to YOU. Isn't that good enough? I don't see that there's any choice anyway. Would you rather the computer simulation was terminated and no new one started ever again? And God suicided out of boredom too? What do you think is more interesting than Life on Earth?

 

[Twilight Hue]

2) If There Isn't a God

Again, much of this is highly opinionated and fueled by my own personal intuition. I'd appreciate any corrections you have to my ideas.

If there isn't a God or any other similar supernatural force, and the universe simply "is," then we are nothing special. We, as humans, are only a product of the forces of nature, composed of the same pieces of matter that build every other object in the universe. We are just huge chemical reactions. Through the phenomenon of our own perceived consciousness, we believe that we have the ability to think for ourselves and make choices. However, since there is no higher power in the universe, we are no more special than the dirt on which we walk. From the instant the universe started, a gigantic chemical reaction began taking place. We are a product of this reaction, we are a reactant in this reaction, and we are limited by the materials we are composed of - our bodies are like computers that take in information, process that information, and react accordingly. Just like in scenario one, we believe that we have some control over our fate, but in actuality, due to the unbending laws of nature, the universe from the beginning was bound to play out one specific way.


I'm new to this whole forum thing, so I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong place or did something wrong. Thanks in advance for any responses.

I approach the universe by way of determinism. More specifically, casual determinism as the latter of your post more or less indicates that we are indeed the result of various processes by way of cause and effect. Yet, its noteworthy in that "what we are" still works in such a way there is a measure of "free will" within the scope of our capabilities as human beings.

Point being it works, and making the best of things as it plays out should suffice well enough in which any negitivity that comes about shouldnt become a central concern in light of acknowledging what is in every way, very natural and normal.

 

[Archie00000]

So...I've been doing a lot of thinking about concept like free will and predestination lately, and the conclusions that I've reached in my mind have kind of had a negative impact on my outlook on life in general. I hate the conclusions I've made - I want to be proved wrong - but nobody that I've talked to in real life has been able to help me (most don't even understand my points), so I thought I'd bring my thoughts here.

Feel free to disagree, or tear my views apart (but I guess that's the point of a discussion forum anyway).

Here is what I'm thinking. I will give my views on free will (or lack thereof) in 2 scenarios. The first scenario will be if the world/universe was created by a single God (such as the God of the bible). The second scenario will be if there is no God, or gods, or any power other than the forces of nature in the universe.

1) If There Is A God

If there is a God, and He is all powerful, all knowing, all good, all loving etc (again, such as in the bible), then that God, as a part of His perfect, all-knowing nature, must know what fate will befall each and every one of us, along with the exact steps we will take to reach that predetermined fate. I firmly believe that God couldn't be God if He couldn't peform a simple trick like looking forward into the future. God is, after all, timeless. He also wrote the rules for the universe as we know it; if He doesn't know how His own creation is going to play out in advance, He cannot be all-knowing.

So, if there is some force out there that knows exactly how our lives are going to play out (in my opinion, since this hypothetical God is "perfect," he must even know how every single specific aspect of our lives will unfold), that must mean that there is a very specific formula that all of our lives will follow, and there is nothing that any of us can do about it. Even though to us it feels like we are conscious and making decisions daily, the fact that there is a God up there who knows exactly what choices we are going to make before we make them means that we only believe we have free will. To us, it feels like we have free will. But in reality we're all just part of a big master plan that God is either conducting, or observing (while still knowing the results).

2) If There Isn't a God

Again, much of this is highly opinionated and fueled by my own personal intuition. I'd appreciate any corrections you have to my ideas.

If there isn't a God or any other similar supernatural force, and the universe simply "is," then we are nothing special. We, as humans, are only a product of the forces of nature, composed of the same pieces of matter that build every other object in the universe. We are just huge chemical reactions. Through the phenomenon of our own perceived consciousness, we believe that we have the ability to think for ourselves and make choices. However, since there is no higher power in the universe, we are no more special than the dirt on which we walk. From the instant the universe started, a gigantic chemical reaction began taking place. We are a product of this reaction, we are a reactant in this reaction, and we are limited by the materials we are composed of - our bodies are like computers that take in information, process that information, and react accordingly. Just like in scenario one, we believe that we have some control over our fate, but in actuality, due to the unbending laws of nature, the universe from the beginning was bound to play out one specific way.


I'm new to this whole forum thing, so I'm sorry if I posted in the wrong place or did something wrong. Thanks in advance for any responses.

If one is a Christian those questions are already answered:

Turn The Other Cheek

Walk The Extra Mile

Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You

Love Thy Neigbor As You Love Yourself

If Sued In Court For Coat Voluntarily Give Cloak

Love Thine Enemies

Pray For Those Who Curse And Despise You

Take No Thought For Tomorrow(anybody have a 40K?)

Sell What You Have And Give It To The Poor(anybody have a 401K?)

Be Ye Also Perfect Even As The Father In Heaven Is Perfect(anybody have a 401K?)


Luke 16

19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. 22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ 27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ 29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ 30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ 31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “

 

[Zoe Doidge]

Everything in the universe is bound by the laws of physics, and so every event is predestined. We instinctively believe we have free will because the universe is too complex for us to predict the future, but it’s still ‘set in stone’.

But the only way to actually predict the future is to know the location and laws behind every particle in existence and be able to process them faster that the interactions actually occur! That would require a computer with at least as much mass as the universe itself, and more than likely many times more.

Even so, free will is an illusion caused by a lack of information. Funnily enough, that’s almost identical to some concepts of enlightenment, that everything is one with no true separation.