Do we have freewill ? is it biblical ?

[zacariah88]

 

[zacariah88]

 

[zacariah88]

 

[Kathryn]

I don't know how free will and predestination work together but they certainly seem to, and I am a bear of little brain!

 

[wellwisher]

We start from the beggining when Adam was giving the power to name the animals G-d gave him freewill to choose Genesis 2:20.
20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.

Here G-d gives Adam gives him ability to think for himself and he decide the animals name.

There is difference from the freewill Hebrew people back in the days of Noah and Moses when the law was directed to G-d's people they had freewill to decide. Their decision is under the law because they did not know other religions or ways they were narrowminded but still the decision from good and evil existed. Did the errors of their fathers before them I mean the fall of Adam stopped them making decisions in their life. Israel did what they want based still of need of surviving. Killing, eating, proceating needs of humanity but no matter what the error of Adam did not take freewill from them.

Romans 7:19 “For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.”

Ezekiel 18:20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

Psalm 110:2 "Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew."



From the day pagans evolved into modern world and establish their own way. Even thou they seperated from their pagan worhsip Rome forced them to mix their deities and influence with christianism and robbed the followers of Christ of Jesus and they painted him white. Named the G-d of Israel to Zeus and change their panteon.

Hebrew law or mosaic law reminds people to obey but G-d has taken prophets to save and do the will of G-d in wars, missions, and choosing good and evil. They break the law in disobeying G-d, prophets like Jeremiah who chose G-d disobey tradition and his father and told Israel their errors and love for the temple forgotten the temple inside they are made of.
Kick Jeremiah out of their circle rejected from society he continued, we have Moses who was ordered by God to pray to the rock and water will come out but Moses disobey and changes things and hit the rock. This angered God and told him he will not enter the promise land. Moses change what God said changed the destiny israel had to had an error while using the word of God,
Numbers 20:6-12
we have Huldah who made mistake in prophecy which A king said he was going to die A peaceful death 2 Chronicles 34:28 and then he died by arrows and had horrible mistake 2 Chronicles 35:22-24.

Here linkhttps://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/do-prophets-of-god-make-mistakes-sometimes/

also Elijah who said Acab will die in one place and Acab did not die according to what Elijah said.
1 Kings 22:1-40

This what shows that destiny changed and the lord allowed it happen he can rewind and move it but he did not becuase he has A plan of God.

Still people can change their course in life if mistake happened like those times of moses. We can change our destiny by failure of men and women who with God prophecy was shown here with Moses and Huldah. Not saying you should make the same mistaek as they did for not God's fault even if moses and huldah with words change the future of Israel and changed the destiny God adjusted to show he forgives moses and Huldah and those did happen. Destiny of your life being a poor shoesales man, poor garbageman, and what you see in your future can always change but ask God for it and do not make the mistakes Moses and Huldah did.

People can change their course in life but what is the promblem from today. Is how the Greek way of thinking of liberalism was popular in the time of Jesus.

James 2:12 "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."

2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."


And Greeks influence the time of jesus that people like Luke wrote his book in the bible and later Catholic church not knowing fully Hebrew culture copied things from greeks and influence the bible. Remember they were not G-d's people but A country that stoled and wrote their intrepretation of G-d and took Jesus as an emblema that is not real.

Greek theology is freedom and rationalist thought, Hebrew people is Law and Relation with the one G-d. Greeks have influence the modernworld and gives them right, the western world copies Greek and Roman culture and their diffinity in their laws have given the modern topic freewill. So freewill clashes with freewill in the old times. That is why everything has to do with predestination, Calvanism go ahead and read see all our versions of choosing good and evil have consequences but still you decide your future.


There are 2 fields :indeterminism and determinism explain modern freewill and both give notion of control. Indeterminism means free acts are not determine in other words what you do with works does not foretold your future and the path you have chosen. Determinism says everything you do has already decided your future and you have no career. Nothing can change your destiny but G-d can.

Matthew 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

God's general sovereignty- says god is in charge of everything but doesn't control everything
God's specific sovereignty- says that He not only has ordained everything, but He also controls everything.

Proverbs 16:9 “The mind of the man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 3:5-6"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."

Say we assume, for the sake of argument, that humans evolved from apes. Apes are natural and are governed by natural instincts. Modern humans have lost their natural instincts as the human animal. Science cannot even agree what are the list of natural human instincts.

It logically follows, there had to be a transitional time, when human started to lose their natural human instincts in favor of other choices for the same behaviors. This transition was indicative of will and choice appearing. Genesis discusses these transitional humans, who started to chose between natural and artificial instincts.

The Bible has two symbolic trees in the Garden of Eden; Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil. The Tree of Life is connected to evolution, natural human instinct and our human DNA; innate human behavior that evolved through natural selection. The tree knowledge of good and evil is not innate, like instinct. It is externally learned behavior; monkey see and monkey do. Adam and Eve had to eat from that tree; input from the outside. Instinct comes from the inside. Nobody has to teach you to breathe. But they have to teach to be prejudice. Indoctrination is not innate but is conditioned from the outside.

Humans, as symbolized by fall of Adam and Eve, externally learned new conscious behavior; ability to define right and wrong. The tree of life or innate human instinct was then taken away, and sealed, less human mess up instinct with learned knowledge. This transition, as symbolized by Adam and Eve, more than likely occurred with the rise of civilization.

Sustained civilization is very recent; 6-10K years, based on carbon dating and science. Civilization created a situation where eons of natural human behavior; million years as wanders, herders and gatherers, came to a stop for many humans. They began to develop brand new ways of living, in a fixed place; farming, that were not part of these eons of natural instinctive training. Genesis in the Bible discusses this new type of human, with human DNA, but an entirely new set of behaviors that allowed civilization and all the changes that created.

The Bible tells us, after the fall, that this new human will and choice, went south in a bad way; story of Noah and the Ark. Humans had become perverted in terms of using will and choice in ways that harmed natural instinct. There was a symbolic purging; great flood, connected to the unconscious mind, resetting the brain, to a better balance; upgrade in operating system. The flood was an uninstall process.

As a modern analogy, will and choice can create a bing of obsessive compulsive behavior, that is harming instinct. It appears to rise and then finally hits rock bottom; overwhelmed with depression and thoughts of suicide. There is a rebirth, into a better balance. In terms of history and the update, the key civilizations of the ancient world would appear; Egypt. There was a better balance for will and choice, with the gods of mythology there to help maintain balance; better connections to the unconscious mind.

As a modern example, the gender bending fad is not based on human DNA, since human DNA, based on X or Y chromosomes naturally choose our sex at birth. Many have learned, or have been taught, in school, to contradict natural, in favor of artificially changing sex using science. This choice is based on will. There is nothing natural to this manmade science capability to alter natural. It would not happen spontaneously, through natural metamorphosis stemming only from the inside, via the DNA; tree of life. This is all tree of knowledge of good and evil; gender bending is called good and natural is called evil. Sound familiar. This fad is a type of religion.

Many often say there is no will and no choice since all is predetermined. This is partially true, but predetermined can also occur through learning and conditioning, and not just based on innate. My guess is the will and choice of todays children was not much different from that of the earliest modern humans. Both were children who were dependent on each other, and vulnerable to going along to get along. Populations could be led astray, reinforced with peer pressure. Rapid group will and choice could spread quickly and mess up natural instinct. But it came back to bite them; flood.

 

[Audie]

We start from the beggining when Adam was giving the power to name the animals G-d gave him freewill to choose Genesis 2:20.
20 The man gave names to all livestock and to the birds of the heavens and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper fit for him.

Here G-d gives Adam gives him ability to think for himself and he decide the animals name.

There is difference from the freewill Hebrew people back in the days of Noah and Moses when the law was directed to G-d's people they had freewill to decide. Their decision is under the law because they did not know other religions or ways they were narrowminded but still the decision from good and evil existed. Did the errors of their fathers before them I mean the fall of Adam stopped them making decisions in their life. Israel did what they want based still of need of surviving. Killing, eating, proceating needs of humanity but no matter what the error of Adam did not take freewill from them.

Romans 7:19 “For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.”

Ezekiel 18:20 “The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”

Psalm 110:2 "Your people will volunteer freely in the day of Your power; In holy array, from the womb of the dawn, Your youth are to You as the dew."



From the day pagans evolved into modern world and establish their own way. Even thou they seperated from their pagan worhsip Rome forced them to mix their deities and influence with christianism and robbed the followers of Christ of Jesus and they painted him white. Named the G-d of Israel to Zeus and change their panteon.

Hebrew law or mosaic law reminds people to obey but G-d has taken prophets to save and do the will of G-d in wars, missions, and choosing good and evil. They break the law in disobeying G-d, prophets like Jeremiah who chose G-d disobey tradition and his father and told Israel their errors and love for the temple forgotten the temple inside they are made of.
Kick Jeremiah out of their circle rejected from society he continued, we have Moses who was ordered by God to pray to the rock and water will come out but Moses disobey and changes things and hit the rock. This angered God and told him he will not enter the promise land. Moses change what God said changed the destiny israel had to had an error while using the word of God,
Numbers 20:6-12
we have Huldah who made mistake in prophecy which A king said he was going to die A peaceful death 2 Chronicles 34:28 and then he died by arrows and had horrible mistake 2 Chronicles 35:22-24.

Here linkhttps://www.neverthirsty.org/bible-qa/qa-archives/question/do-prophets-of-god-make-mistakes-sometimes/

also Elijah who said Acab will die in one place and Acab did not die according to what Elijah said.
1 Kings 22:1-40

This what shows that destiny changed and the lord allowed it happen he can rewind and move it but he did not becuase he has A plan of God.

Still people can change their course in life if mistake happened like those times of moses. We can change our destiny by failure of men and women who with God prophecy was shown here with Moses and Huldah. Not saying you should make the same mistaek as they did for not God's fault even if moses and huldah with words change the future of Israel and changed the destiny God adjusted to show he forgives moses and Huldah and those did happen. Destiny of your life being a poor shoesales man, poor garbageman, and what you see in your future can always change but ask God for it and do not make the mistakes Moses and Huldah did.

People can change their course in life but what is the promblem from today. Is how the Greek way of thinking of liberalism was popular in the time of Jesus.

James 2:12 "So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty."

2 Corinthians 3:17 "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty."


And Greeks influence the time of jesus that people like Luke wrote his book in the bible and later Catholic church not knowing fully Hebrew culture copied things from greeks and influence the bible. Remember they were not G-d's people but A country that stoled and wrote their intrepretation of G-d and took Jesus as an emblema that is not real.

Greek theology is freedom and rationalist thought, Hebrew people is Law and Relation with the one G-d. Greeks have influence the modernworld and gives them right, the western world copies Greek and Roman culture and their diffinity in their laws have given the modern topic freewill. So freewill clashes with freewill in the old times. That is why everything has to do with predestination, Calvanism go ahead and read see all our versions of choosing good and evil have consequences but still you decide your future.


There are 2 fields :indeterminism and determinism explain modern freewill and both give notion of control. Indeterminism means free acts are not determine in other words what you do with works does not foretold your future and the path you have chosen. Determinism says everything you do has already decided your future and you have no career. Nothing can change your destiny but G-d can.

Matthew 12:37 “For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”

God's general sovereignty- says god is in charge of everything but doesn't control everything
God's specific sovereignty- says that He not only has ordained everything, but He also controls everything.

Proverbs 16:9 “The mind of the man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps.

Proverbs 3:5-6"Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding; in all your ways submit to him, and he will make your paths straight."

" Freewill" isn't biblical,
or English.

 

[Audie]

Say we assume, for the sake of argument, that humans evolved from apes. Apes are natural and are governed by natural instincts. Modern humans have lost their natural instincts as the human animal. Science cannot even agree what are the list of natural human instincts.

It logically follows, there had to be a transitional time, when human started to lose their natural human instincts in favor of other choices for the same behaviors. This transition was indicative of will and choice appearing. Genesis discusses these transitional humans, who started to chose between natural and artificial instincts.

The Bible has two symbolic trees in the Garden of Eden; Tree of Life and Tree of Knowledge of Good and evil. The Tree of Life is connected to evolution, natural human instinct and our human DNA; innate human behavior that evolved through natural selection. The tree knowledge of good and evil is not innate, like instinct. It is externally learned behavior; monkey see and monkey do. Adam and Eve had to eat from that tree; input from the outside. Instinct comes from the inside. Nobody has to teach you to breathe. But they have to teach to be prejudice. Indoctrination is not innate but is conditioned from the outside.

Humans, as symbolized by fall of Adam and Eve, externally learned new conscious behavior; ability to define right and wrong. The tree of life or innate human instinct was then taken away, and sealed, less human mess up instinct with learned knowledge. This transition, as symbolized by Adam and Eve, more than likely occurred with the rise of civilization.

Sustained civilization is very recent; 6-10K years, based on carbon dating and science. Civilization created a situation where eons of natural human behavior; million years as wanders, herders and gatherers, came to a stop for many humans. They began to develop brand new ways of living, in a fixed place; farming, that were not part of these eons of natural instinctive training. Genesis in the Bible discusses this new type of human, with human DNA, but an entirely new set of behaviors that allowed civilization and all the changes that created.

The Bible tells us, after the fall, that this new human will and choice, went south in a bad way; story of Noah and the Ark. Humans had become perverted in terms of using will and choice in ways that harmed natural instinct. There was a symbolic purging; great flood, connected to the unconscious mind, resetting the brain, to a better balance; upgrade in operating system. The flood was an uninstall process.

As a modern analogy, will and choice can create a bing of obsessive compulsive behavior, that is harming instinct. It appears to rise and then finally hits rock bottom; overwhelmed with depression and thoughts of suicide. There is a rebirth, into a better balance. In terms of history and the update, the key civilizations of the ancient world would appear; Egypt. There was a better balance for will and choice, with the gods of mythology there to help maintain balance; better connections to the unconscious mind.

As a modern example, the gender bending fad is not based on human DNA, since human DNA, based on X or Y chromosomes naturally choose our sex at birth. Many have learned, or have been taught, in school, to contradict natural, in favor of artificially changing sex using science. This choice is based on will. There is nothing natural to this manmade science capability to alter natural. It would not happen spontaneously, through natural metamorphosis stemming only from the inside, via the DNA; tree of life. This is all tree of knowledge of good and evil; gender bending is called good and natural is called evil. Sound familiar. This fad is a type of religion.

Many often say there is no will and no choice since all is predetermined. This is partially true, but predetermined can also occur through learning and conditioning, and not just based on innate. My guess is the will and choice of todays children was not much different from that of the earliest modern humans. Both were children who were dependent on each other, and vulnerable to going along to get along. Populations could be led astray, reinforced with peer pressure. Rapid group will and choice could spread quickly and mess up natural instinct. But it came back to bite them; flood.

Evolution is not "assumed" and human beings are apes.

With that shakey start you go on to state that people
have lost their natural instincts- untrue then contrsdict yourself in the next line.

There's no logic to be had from nonsense.
And you assume, falsely that all other creatures are purely
instinctual in nature. The " transition" as youu speak of it
is nonsense. So is " artificial instincts".

No point in going through all of it, but we note you
bring in " flood" as a factor, as if there had been a flood.

 

[FredVB]

If hominids means apes, we are then apes. It depends on definition. We have to choose in matters, and in Bible passages it is said, in a great many places, we are to choose. That is not said to be deceptive, we really have to choose in certain matters, there is then free will in those things up to us, and that is biblical. God made us to freely choose in things. It is not even exclusive to humans, either.

 

[Audie]

If hominids means apes, we are then apes. It depends on definition. We have to choose in matters, and in Bible passages it is said, in a great many places, we are to choose. That is not said to be deceptive, we really have to choose in certain matters, there is then free will in those things up to us, and that is biblical. God made us to freely choose in things. It is not even exclusive to humans, either.

The topic runs way deeper than that

 

[zacariah88]

the verses their are more that explain your argument I have read them but read deep in scripture, only helping you guys understand truly freewill a huge area that we need to see the whole picture and see how God will want it. Not thru our own experience but what he originally planned in the Eden is how he wanted freewill to work for us. Put things in God's hands and add more verses to your argument please.

 

[zacariah88]

a good friend said this.

Premise 1: There are 3 billion people who never heard of Christ -see https://www.christiantoday.com/arti...lion.who.have.never.heard.of.jesus/136398.htm
Premise 2: One must know of Christ to be saved (John 3:18)
Conclusion: Free will is impossible to at least 25%
Premise 1: Approximately 25% of individuals do not reach the age of accountability due to abortions, sickness, miscarriages, war, etc.
Conclusion: Free will is impossible for all these people
Premise 1: Children have a great tendency to be of the same religion as their parent(s) ... see https://www.pewresearch.org/religio...us-upbringing-and-current-religious-identity/
Conclusion: The decision of people is very often not entirely their own which contradicts the concept of free will

Premise 1: Free Will is not found in the bible
Conclusion: Free Will is not biblical. ... like "dah".

he's version.

 

[zacariah88]

you only see one point of the whole area doesn't mean your are right but on the contrary you just hold that one word such freewill a word in the modern world has created does not mean it doesn't exist. Freewill exist and god created it and wants us to see it how he holds it to see he has freewill given and Jesus is our example of freewill perfect he had it how it wants and in the eyes of the lord he came here to show to us he's way of how freewill. Don't be like the scientist saying he doesn't have opportunities when he is lazy and wants his way instead of God's way.
You do not understand what is freewill from God's point of view or from Jesus point of view.

 

[zacariah88]

Remember there many definitions of freewill. Determinism, freewill modern liberalism, freewill biblical, freewill your own experience, and freewill thru God his way when he created creationa nd from Jesus point of view how he wanted.


We are all learning freewill and we are seeing the deep of this huge field of freewill theology which is great in rich text and defines our relation with him in if we really trust, we trust him a percentage, we trust him like a child to a parent or we do not realize what we are ? Really we don't know the trueselves. Remember God says he has meant before you were born and he has plan of God for ya. He sent you here for a purpose one you and him agreed when he sent you here to do something he wanted to find your purpose on how you use your will and put in his hand find the secret thing of God sent you here.


He will reveal it to you in prayer and test and find the relation of Jesus how he used freewill and find when you try to do it like him even do impossible you will find why he sent you here in this planet.
We all have different purposes here in this planet but what he wants in his secret plan for you only and to do his plan you will discover the secret of life and love and his will.
Our will must be in his to know what he wanted us to do ;D.

 

[zacariah88]

Be the person you were before he sent you here, when you were in heaven for some it's being a child again for others being the mature and repsonsible person to achive like Jesus it will be revealed those secrets of us inside. The world teaches us to be liek the world and buy and sell, eat and drink and just sleep forget the world and you important. When you find God and you dig inside of you and ask God tell me why you sent me here to save my friends to go to war and save someone you have in your perfect plan or for me just for one day help someone you want in the future he becomes christian and enjoy the rest of my life with my family and he agve it easy for you ;D. it could be the smallest things or biggest to be president. He told you to be here in this world.
This is why we must go and ask him and pass God's test and when he sees he will show you his secret things in the bible and show you met him in heaven and he had plan and i'm not saying you are angel he sent you for in the bible Jesus says we will be like angels but in greek and other translation when he says that he just comparing us we cannot prove we are angels in this context but regardless he has a plan and he wanted us to be here for a special reason.

 

[zacariah88]

Ask God what is he sent you and you will find the secret of freewill and see things in Jesus view in how perfect will in God you have freewill if your the person that comes close to be like Jesus , he will reveal to you why he sent you and give you the powers to get to heaven, to being preisdent to find true love, to be like Jesus and love all like he does and show that secret he gives us all about him and do the thing he wanted you to find. And

go thru all probablities to get there and find the things he wanted you showing that Huldah mistake and Moses mistake of hitting the rock and in error of man destiny can be changed but thru love and prayer to him and finding true love finding his secret of why he sent you, and finding the real things of the bible perhaps is why he sent you, so you can find the real things of the bible and help the world.

See that the error of Moses and huldah shows by example that destiny can go other way and for a purpose he has in secret and thru he's test he can reveal secrets their and showed us Moses error was left to show we can do the opposite and change the destiny by love and faith we could change error in love and it can go into actions in the future that will change histroy and we can move destiny not in error like moses but love can change it ? Yes it is possible even though you cannot understand that something I do understand of how the universe and possibilities can change and we can change things for good and not make the mistake like moses did and huldah and get more people saved and have more people been baptized yes. Their are exception and God has given us exceptions that destiny can be changed and that determinism by his will can exist without him be having control all over the universe.

 

[zacariah88]

And love is how God shows he can change the universe and chaneg timelines and move things in a better way ? Yes. God could end our civilization end this and do another things and change us all. God can erase form our minds and erase in that instant to israelites in the desert to forget moses amde that error or send an angel in that instant stop him from making that error nothing is impossible to the lord. God can but he wants us to learn he wants us to love he wants us to be in his story in our universe.


Truly he can change it all make it perfect he is God. God of gods, but by doing those things he lets us see the blindspot to our advantage that we can change our destiny to be president to be the secret things he sent you here to know what purpose, to do more than we our just simple human beings but with him we can change the future and be what we want. Some of you do not understand that because you do not know becuase you don't know why your here but I know why i'm here and know those secret stuff becuase he told us all why he sent us here from heaven and it's in the bible and your personal life to know what those things are.
Some of us will the real things of the bible and when we know we realize he a bigger plan than we know he wanted us to do the secret stuff of the bible. ;D.

 

[Bird123]

Everybody wants to rule the world.
Mankind is a ruling and controlling lot. This can be seen all around even in the religions mankind has created. Religion reflects mankind more than anything else.

It isn't God who is attempting to control your choices. In fact, God's system counts on people making their free choices.

Why allow free choices? In time, we will all discover for ourselves. Allowing free choice is the intelligent choice.

That's what I see. It's very clear!!!

 

[zacariah88]

Not an antinatalsit or solve but made an answer to big question in freewill.

 

[zacariah88]

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Hello!

Ezekiel 18:20 “The person who sins will die…”

I just wanted to point something out: where this verse says “person”, the Hebrew manuscripts (ie., the oldest copies of the Scriptures) use the word “ne*pes” or “nephesh”, which is the word translated “soul.”

So the Bible really teaches that the “soul” is the person, and that the soul can die!

That is probably a new idea for you!

See also Leviticus 21:1, Numbers 6:6, Numbers 6:11, Numbers 19:13 … where it says “dead person” or “dead body”? The phrase in Hebrew is “dead soul”!

So the soul dies; it can be dead!

These Truths have been hidden.