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Do We See Colors Differently?

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
What if how I see blue was completely different than how you see blue? Of course, it's a common fact that color is an illusion anyways, but that doesn't matter. We're talking in terms of personal means anyways.

The reason why we would see a different color yet call it by the same name would be because we point at something an agree with the name for its color, and blue would be the same blue for anything else that is called "blue" in your life.

So it's the same light, but how we each see that light is completely different. If that were true, how would we know otherwise? Sort of like describing color to a blind man.

For me; this is probably one of the best representations on how I view reality in general, in the extreme sense.
 

Willamena

Just me
Premium Member
I have no doubt that we see colour uniquely, based on our personal apparatus.

There's no reason why colours shouldn't be a term rather than a characteristic.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
... but color isn't an illusion. It's a product of an object's chemical and physical properties, and how they respond to electromagnetic energy. These things can be objectively measured and studied, as can the responses of biological retinas, optic nerves, and CNS processing of that information. Based on what we know, people do see color in the same way, conditions such as color blindness notwithstanding. The vocabulary they use can be different, though, as can cultural responses based on associated symbolism.

I'm totally missing (or messing with) your point, aren't I?
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I have no doubt that we see colour uniquely, based on our personal apparatus.

There's no reason why colours shouldn't be a term rather than a characteristic.

Makes you wonder... for all we know we could hear sounds differently as well.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
... but color isn't an illusion. It's a product of an object's chemical and physical properties, and how they respond to electromagnetic energy. These things can be objectively measured and studied, as can the responses of biological retinas, optic nerves, and CNS processing of that information. Based on what we know, people do see color in the same way, conditions such as color blindness notwithstanding. The vocabulary they use can be different, though, as can cultural responses based on associated symbolism.

I'm totally missing (or messing with) your point, aren't I?

It's true that the wavelengths can be objectively measured, but how the eyes interpret those wavelengths is an illusion.

I recommend watching this guy (from a great show "Brain Games")

[youtube]_nr1TN9xOI0[/youtube]
Jason Silva on Color

Just to note: One thing I disagree with him; I view consciousness as the result of senses rather than "Our consciousness sits in our brain..."
 
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Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Why would we? I agree that there is a high chance of there being minute or inconsequential discrepancies. But the degree in which we have developed eyesight as a sense and how uniform it is within our DNA and construction (at least within our own species) would indicate that, impirically, the way we view colors should be also uniform.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
Why would we? I agree that there is a high chance of there being minute or inconsequential discrepancies. But the degree in which we have developed eyesight as a sense and how uniform it is within our DNA and construction (at least within our own species) would indicate that, impirically, the way we view colors should be also uniform.

True. But is our interpretation of colors uniform? Could the image that this uniform eyesight captures be different in how it processes them?
 

Sunstone

De Diablo Del Fora
Premium Member
I recently read that the issue has been settled by some new experiment, and that we don't see colors the same way. Your blue may be my green. My green may be someone elses yellow. I can't recall anything more about what I read than that, however, but I do gather that the experimenters were pretty sure they'd found a way to answer the question. Who knows? Maybe they were wrong.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
I recently read that the issue has been settled by some new experiment, and that we don't see colors the same way. Your blue may be my green. My green may be someone elses yellow. I can't recall anything more about what I read than that, however, but I do gather that the experimenters were pretty sure they'd found a way to answer the question. Who knows? Maybe they were wrong.

That'd be very interesting to see. I can't think of a way to.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
True. But is our interpretation of colors uniform? Could the image that this uniform eyesight captures be different in how it processes them?

It seems unlikely. Obviously it is an impossible question to answer but it seems to follow reason that the senses would be uniform or at least very close since we are the same species. We KNOW that other species however interpret colors and information in general differently.

But back on point where exactly do you think that the difference arises? Is it in our eyes? I think there have been eye transplants (though I'm spreaking off the collar and too lazy to google it at 4 in the morning) and the color was not changed.

And if it has to do with our brains wouldn't truamatic brain injuries to parts of the brain that interpret information and configure pictures also alter the color that they see? So far in those cases I have never heard of color changing. I have heard of other even more bizzar phenomenon though.

Overall it just seems unlikely that what I would consider "blue" is your "red" or that we see totally different colors all together.
 

The Sum of Awe

Brought to you by the moment that spacetime began.
Staff member
Premium Member
It seems unlikely. Obviously it is an impossible question to answer but it seems to follow reason that the senses would be uniform or at least very close since we are the same species. We KNOW that other species however interpret colors and information in general differently.

But back on point where exactly do you think that the difference arises? Is it in our eyes? I think there have been eye transplants (though I'm spreaking off the collar and too lazy to google it at 4 in the morning) and the color was not changed.

And if it has to do with our brains wouldn't truamatic brain injuries to parts of the brain that interpret information and configure pictures also alter the color that they see? So far in those cases I have never heard of color changing. I have heard of other even more bizzar phenomenon though.

Overall it just seems unlikely that what I would consider "blue" is your "red" or that we see totally different colors all together.

It is one of those questions, similar to the tree falling when nobody's around.

I can't say for sure I that I believe this to be true, but it is a good metaphor for my other beliefs on subjective-objective reality. If anything though, I'd say it has to do with how our brain interprets it, it gets the information, sent to the brain and is processed that way similarly to how people relate smells to other smells and there is a disagreement (not always).

As for brain trauma, I suspect the senses, or at least the interpretation of the information these senses retrieve, would be distorted from the trauma and when it gets ground, if it does, how it's viewed would have changed, but the perceiver would not even notice the slightest.

Again, just throwing out possibilities, I'm not going to claim absolute truth to this.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
It is one of those questions, similar to the tree falling when nobody's around.

I can't say for sure I that I believe this to be true, but it is a good metaphor for my other beliefs on subjective-objective reality. If anything though, I'd say it has to do with how our brain interprets it, it gets the information, sent to the brain and is processed that way similarly to how people relate smells to other smells and there is a disagreement (not always).

As for brain trauma, I suspect the senses, or at least the interpretation of the information these senses retrieve, would be distorted from the trauma and when it gets ground, if it does, how it's viewed would have changed, but the perceiver would not even notice the slightest.

Again, just throwing out possibilities, I'm not going to claim absolute truth to this.

This is just a philisophical debate so there is no "winner". I'm just stating that it seems unlikely because of the afformentioned reasons.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
The existence of synesthesia is by itself enough to demonstrate that the perception of colors does in fact vary.

The question is how often and how deeply it does. Personally, I'm convinced that it varies quite a lot, both due to physical and neurological factors.
 

Falvlun

Earthbending Lemur
Premium Member
I recently read that the issue has been settled by some new experiment, and that we don't see colors the same way. Your blue may be my green. My green may be someone elses yellow. I can't recall anything more about what I read than that, however, but I do gather that the experimenters were pretty sure they'd found a way to answer the question. Who knows? Maybe they were wrong.

What if that means we all have the same favorite color? We just have been conditioned to use different words to describe it.

Mind blown. :D
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
What if that means we all have the same favorite color? We just have been conditioned to use different words to describe it.

Mind blown. :D

And it turns out that the specific wavelengths that trigger that preference vary among people?

It sounds like a distinct possibility. One would at the very least assume that the biochemicals of feeling the preference for one color over others are not all that associated with the actual wavelengths.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
... but color isn't an illusion. It's a product of an object's chemical and physical properties, and how they respond to electromagnetic energy. These things can be objectively measured and studied, as can the responses of biological retinas, optic nerves, and CNS processing of that information. Based on what we know, people do see color in the same way, conditions such as color blindness notwithstanding. The vocabulary they use can be different, though, as can cultural responses based on associated symbolism.

I'm totally missing (or messing with) your point, aren't I?
It's an old philosophical problem/thought-experiment about qualia. The brain turns wavelengths of electromagnetic energy into colors, but the final mechanism for how these visible colors are generated in the mind, the qualia, is unknown. That's the whole hard problem of consciousness and qualia and all that, like we can't yet look at someone's brain and know exactly what they're thinking, or what they see.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I'm not aware of any experiments about this or how it could be tested, but I might have missed news about it or something.

There is some evidence and limitations.

For example, I'm not aware of someone's color scheme being changed other than in a hallucination or dream, like suddenly viewing all strawberries as blue from now on after an injury or prolonged drug use or anything.

And logically, color schemes have to at least be consistent. For example, we have an understanding of light and dark, with some colors being lighter or darker and white and black being at the two extremes. If me and someone else had colors randomly switched, like my purple was her yellow, but our greens were the same, we'd eventually figure out a point of disagreement, that "purple" is a dark color for her and a light color for me, or something. Basically the whole thing would have to be consistent enough that there are no clues, like it would all have to be inverted so that my sense of dark and her sense of dark are reversed, but with colors still consistent along that inverse spectrum so that we don't have any discrepancies we can identify.
 

Druidus

Keeper of the Grove
I can see one way we might be able to test this.

This idea, of course, rests on you first having accepted that what we subjectively experience is a product of the brain itself (you might get away with just saying that our perceptions of/from the senses, at least, are a product of our brain) and how the various cells of the brain communicate, what patterns they use, and the timing of their signalling. Using that starting point, you can see that what you "see" is highly dependent upon the structure of your brain, and the unique way that it has developed over your life due to experience and your own genetics.

Your mind has to take the various signals it gets from your retina, and weave them into a consistent and perceptible whole for you to subjectively experience. There is no such thing as red, yellow, or blue, at least, not inherently within the universe itself. All colours, indeed, the entire electromagnetic's range, are just different wavelengths of light/photons. To the universe itself, nothing has "colour", just different photons' wavelengths.

Edit (meant to include this):

EM_Spectrum_Properties_edit.svg


Our retinas take information about the wavelengths of light, transmit it through the optic nerve to the brain, the brain interprets this information, and using a group or group of groups of cells somewhere in the visual processing centres of the brain, ties our unique and personalized sense of colour into our general subjective consciousness.

So what we perceive as colour is really just heavily processed and edited information from our retinas which had coded the wavelength of the light. This information then enters into the parts of the brain that handle subjective awareness of sight. Sight already ties in information from separate groups of neurons in different parts of the brain, such as parts processing shape, size, depth, etc. It also ties in colour.

Since this is how colour is produced, and each brain is different in neuron location, amount, pattern, etc., then I find it likely that we do see different colours. Each brain being slightly different, how the visual information gets tied into subjective consciousness would not be exactly the same. There may be similarities, and undoubtedly some near matches, but probably everyone would be seeing different colours subjectively, while still calling them the same.

In partial support for this, it is definitely already true that men and women do see colours differently, with the average woman being able to see far more wavelengths (read colours) than the average man. So their brain has a more "advanced" visual processing system in regard to colour, which, as far as I know, comes from partial activity of a degraded fourth cone. Cones are cells that perceive colour in our eyes, as opposed to rods which can only provide brightness, not colour. On average, their eyes see far more colours than average, and there are an unknown number of females, likely millions, if not more, who can see even more colours due to highly functioning fourth cone cells; cells that are always inactive in males.

Interestingly, the same dichotomy appears in monkeys. Old World Monkeys have colour vision, using the same cones we do. In fact, all living Old World primates see colour with this system (though all have different brains, and likely see the different "colours" from the same wavelengths), and very few New World monkeys do. This is because most mammals only have two cones, not three like primates. All other land vertebrates have it, such as birds and reptiles. Why not mammals? Because we lost our fourth cell during the reign of the dinosaurs, when the mammals that led to us all were nocturnal in order to survive. Primates managed to re-evolve it, but only after the split between New and Old World Monkeys (really cool story how they got there, too, it involves a huge raft of debris bringing ancient monkeys across the smaller Atlantic to S. America).

Luckily for a select group of monkeys in S. America, they, too managed to re-evolve the fourth cone. What's interesting is that only their females carry this trait, never the males. This is because the gene for this is carried on the X chromosome, and you have to have two of them to get the trait of being able to see an estimated 100 million colours subjectively, compared to 1 million for the males.

There's no need to see the same "colours" subjectively in different brains just a need to associate the same groups of wavelengths with the appropriate response or linguistic concept.

Here's a neat article about females seeing these wavelenths/colours:

The Humans With Super Human Vision | DiscoverMagazine.com

Excerpt:

Each of the three standard color-detecting cones in the retina -- blue, green and red -- can pick up about 100 different gradations of color, Dr. Neitz estimated. But the brain can combine those variations exponentially, he said, so that the average person can distinguish about 1 million different hues.

A true tetrachromat has another type of cone in between the red and green -- somewhere in the orange range -- and its 100 shades theoretically would allow her to see 100 million different colors.

That may be why Mrs. Hogan can look out the windows of her Mount Washington home and tell the relative depths and silting of the three rivers at the Point by discerning the subtle differences in their shades.

"I have a very hard time even giving names to colors because I see so many other colors inside them," she said.

Dr. Neitz, who conducts his research with his wife Maureen, said only women have the potential for super color vision.

That's because the genes for the pigments in green and red cones lie on the X chromosome, and only women have two X chromosomes, creating the opportunity for one type of red cone to be activated on one X chromosome and the other type of red cone on the other one. In a few cases, women may have two distinct green cones on either X chromosome.



Read more: Some women may see 100 million colors, thanks to their genes - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

He suggests that there may be 99 million women with this trait. They clearly see different colours than males or other females do.

Add this with things like synesthesia and other products of differing systems of visual processing cells and patterns, and I think you've got a strong hypothesis for subjective visual perception of qualitatively different "colours" from the same wavelengths being likely for most, if not all people.

How much it differs, and when, are the questions, I'd think. It probably wouldn't be by much, in most cases, but there would be at least some differences. Still, this is just my hypothesis. I know I'm probably wrong at least somewhere.
 
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