Do You Agree?

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
Does that include the man who used his gun to mass murder the children here?

I think all should have right to defend themselves. But, I think murderers deserve death penalty.

That won't reduce gun crime or mass shootings, whereas reducing the amount of guns, and making them harder to obtain does, as other countries have demonstrated. It seems revenge is more important to some than reducing gun violence, also odd for someone claiming to be a Christian to want to kill someone, as revenge?

 

[Sheldon]

Being trained in the field doesn't make police officers more than human.

What kind of training makes one more than human? Got any links, I'd sign up for one of those courses.

 

[Fool]

True. I don't remember saying otherwise.


In the field of what?
Police are trained in the field they work in.
Those who do paperwork, are trained to do paper work.
Those who work with traffic are trained in that area. Carrying a gun, bullet proof vest... does not mean they are marksmen.
The training Special forces get, is not the same as a patrol officer.


I don't even know why that's on this page.


Being trained in the field doesn't make police officers more than human. That's why things like this happen.
Two officers opened fire, discharging a total of three bullets. They missed the man, but struck two women nearby, including one who had been leaning against her walker; the bullet wound to her leg sent her tumbling to the ground.

The shooting on Saturday night immediately raised questions about the police’s use of deadly force, especially in a crowded area where bystanders were in the line of fire.

Does that make the officer untrained?
Maybe that depends on what one considers trained, because some of these officers are rookies, so one might not consider them trained to the degree that they consider trained.
I don't know what you consider trained.

It was said, these officers were relatively new to the department - a year and a half to three years experience. Does that matter?

Then it should be considered in the case where those first responders arrived, boldly went toward the gunfire, right up to the classroom, but retreated to cover, under gunfire.

They used their judgment. That counts as part of their training.
Firing a weapon is not the only thing police officers are trained to do.
They are humans. They aren't machines.

Any excuse.

Maybe they needed a bathroom break or a cigarette smoke.

When some people are under pressure, they fail.

This was a failure. A thousand excuses won't fix it.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I don't need your opinion.

OK

 

[nPeace]

Which one?

All of them, basically.
You said... "they stayed outside the school for almost a full hour, and publicly lied about the suspect's weapons and armour in order to justify taking no action.

They chased an armed shooter into a building full of children, did nothing for an hour, and lied about it in order to justify their cowardly inaction."

What credible source supports the assertion that the officers...

1. stayed outside the school for almost a full hour
2. publicly lied about the suspect's weapons and armour in order to justify taking no action.
3. chased an armed shooter into a building full of children
4. did nothing for an hour
5. lied about it in order to justify their cowardly inaction.

To be fair, there's some confusion as to whether the shooter went into the school following initial encounters with the police, or if the shooter was misidentified by the police while the actual shooter walked in unobstructed. Either way, the shooter entered the school and the police we aware of this and did nothing.

Allowing an armed person to walk into a school... especially in the US... is the biggest blunder in the history of school shootings, I would agree.
I don't understand how an officer could allow that, and say he needed to get permission from his supervisor, on whether to shoot or not.
Even if he did not shoot, I would expect they would at least confront the suspect... and be ready to shoot... if necessary.
I would consider that good judgment.
Isn't the officer there for that reason?
However, they may be protocol they are required to follow, so I cannot judge their actions without having the facts.

How is that relevant?

If your assertion that they "chased an armed shooter into a building full of children" is relevant, it's relevant.
The shooter was not chased into the school. I don't know where you got that information.
The video shows the 18-year-old gunman dressed in all black with a backpack casually walk into a rear entrance of the school carrying the AR-15. ...He pauses briefly at a closed classroom door decorated with the words “welcome class” before turning right into the main hall.

See above.

See above.

So you think armed and trained police officers are terrified of armed conflict and would be foolish to intervene in an active shooter scenario?

No. Why would you ask that?
I think trained police officers are trained to use good judgment, where it is vital, and not run headlong into a situation, as though the only training they got is how to aim and fire a gun.

They sat outside for over an hour rather than intervening in an active shooter incident, and then lied about how well equipped the gunman was in order to support their cowardice.

Nobody sat outside.
Are you watching or reading something other than what was accurately published?

I don't see anyone sitting doing nothing. Do you?
Here is what it has been reported they were doing.
Less than 20 minutes after the first attempt at breaching the classroom, the footage shows officers with a ballistic shield, and high-powered assault rifles were inside the school just beneath the hallway camera.

According to body camera video, officers spent the next 46 minutes amassing additional protection, including a fourth ballistic shield and tear gas canisters. They discussed various ways to enter the classroom, including using outside windows, to kill the gunman.

Paramedics even begin treating the wounded.
Does that sound like doing nothing, to you. What were you looking for them to do?

Stop covering for them.

I'm not covering for anybody.
I am not a lawyer, and this is not a court hearing.
I really don't know what movies you have been watching, but the school shooting was not a Warner Brother's film.

When are you going to provide the credible source to back up your assertions... or is there none?

 

[nPeace]

Any excuse.

Maybe they needed a bathroom break or a cigarette smoke.

When some people are under pressure, they fail.

This was a failure. A thousand excuses won't fix it.

Maybe it was a failure. Maybe it was not.
Who decides that?

Persons admitted there were mistakes made. I saw a at least one. I don't know what others were made. Maybe there were more, from the very start of the chase.

I see cops making mistakes all the time. They are human.
The question is, can we... would we do any better?
Then why condemn them for trying.... or having tried?

 

[Fool]

Maybe it was a failure. Maybe it was not.
Who decides that?

Persons admitted there were mistakes made. I saw a at least one. I don't know what others were made. Maybe there were more, from the very start of the chase.

I see cops making mistakes all the time. They are human.
The question is, can we... would we do any better?
Then why condemn them for trying.... or having tried?

Any excuse. Even the people in prison are human. Even negligent people are human. Even terrorized children with no guns are human while waiting for adults to think about it.

The best laid plans of mice and men.

You opened this can of worms. The real victims here are the children who didn't make it home for supper.

 

[Dao Hao Now]

In the field of what?
Police are trained in the field they work in.
Those who do paperwork, are trained to do paper work.
Those who work with traffic are trained in that area. Carrying a gun, bullet proof vest... does not mean they are marksmen.
The training Special forces get, is not the same as a patrol officer.

Where do you get this crap?
Do you even know what a marksman is?
Do you seriously believe that the officers on site weren’t trained for the task at hand?

Enough with bringing up entirely unrelated police instances that have absolutely nothing to do with what happened in Uvalde.

You keep bringing up “judgement”.
The whole point here is that there were multiple instances of poor judgment involved that day that resulted in what the Director of Texas Department of Public Safety described as an “abject failure”.
Perhaps you don’t think he’s had the proper training or experience to come to that conclusion?

Look we get it…if you were in the responding officers shoes, you would have been fearful for your safety and in your judgment would have determined that it was prudent to wait for well over an hour while innocent victims were laying bleeding out and those that hadn’t been shot yet were in eminent danger from a shooter who had demonstrated his willingness to kill.

That is simply a demonstration that YOU are unqualified to be a cop.
But don’t project your inadequacy on the cops that were actually there.

You’re correct the officers are humans.
So too were the victims in that classroom.
Humans in desperate need of help. You seem to keep overlooking that fact.

 

[nPeace]

Any excuse. Even the people in prison are human. Even negligent people are human. Even terrorized children with no guns are human while waiting for adults to think about it.

The best laid plans of mice and men.

What are you trying to say.. that the cops were wilfully negligent? I don't know that they were.
If indeed they were, you or I can't change that.
The world is what it is.
Will it get better?
I believe it will, under God's kingdom.
In the meantime, more people - including children, will die at the hands of evil men, and no human - not police, not government... will stop it. Why?
They can't... No matter how hard they try.

 

[Fool]

What are you trying to say.. that the cops were wilfully negligent? I don't know that they were.
If indeed they were, you or I can't change that.
The world is what it is.
Will it get better?
I believe it will, under God's kingdom.
In the meantime, more people - including children, will die at the hands of evil men, and no human - not police, not government... will stop it. Why?
They can't... No matter how hard they try.

I didn't ask you what you thought.

You asked us by opening this thread.

 

[nPeace]

No, you are the one suggesting that my disdain for the police in this instance betrays a lack of empathy.

I would suggest that defending police chasing an armed suspect into a school, then doing nothing for an hour, then lying in an attempt to justify doing nothing for an hour should induce disdain from anyone with a shred of human empathy.

As far as I can see @stvdv did no such thing. He simply gave his view - how he sees it.

You took it as a personal attack on your view.
Is that because you feel nobody should have a view different to yours, and you feel that anyone with a view diiferent to yours is condeming you?
Do you know what that suggests?

Some people feel condemned by the actions of people, which are different to theirs.
That's at the heart of people taking action against righteous people. Jealousy, is at its root.

No one here is defending anyone.
Is it a matter that you are condemning, and do you feel justified in that?

@stvdv tries not to condemn. That's how he is. I have known him to be that way for a long time.
Although, he seeks to correct me at times, and it may seem like condemnation , he's not trying to condemn... just trying to help.

 

[nPeace]

I didn't ask you what you thought.

You asked us by opening this thread.

So did I understand you correctly?
Do you think the cops were wilfully negligent?

 

[nPeace]

I didn't ask you what you thought.

You asked us by opening this thread.

...and thanks for that reminder. I actually forgot that I asked what you think. Forgive me.

 

[Fool]

So did I understand you correctly?
Do you think the cops were wilfully negligent?

45 minutes to respond to an active shooter is negligence.

This is not a new phenomena.

 

[nPeace]

45 minutes to respond to an active shooter is negligence.

This is not a new phenomena.

Since they did not take 45 minutes to respond as some are claiming, and the video clearly shows that, I disagree, but thank you for sharing your view.

Uvalde hallway video shows gunman entering classroom, police inaction
Less than 20 minutes after the first attempt at breaching the classroom, the footage shows officers with a ballistic shield, and high-powered assault rifles were inside the school just beneath the hallway camera.

According to body camera video, officers spent the next 46 minutes amassing additional protection, including a fourth ballistic shield and tear gas canisters. They discussed various ways to enter the classroom, including using outside windows, to kill the gunman.

 

[Fool]

Since they did not take 45 minutes to respond as some are claiming, and the video clearly shows that, I disagree, but thank you for sharing your view.

Uvalde hallway video shows gunman entering classroom, police inaction
Less than 20 minutes after the first attempt at breaching the classroom, the footage shows officers with a ballistic shield, and high-powered assault rifles were inside the school just beneath the hallway camera.

According to body camera video, officers spent the next 46 minutes amassing additional protection, including a fourth ballistic shield and tear gas canisters. They discussed various ways to enter the classroom, including using outside windows, to kill the gunman.

From your very first post
####
The trained and equipped officers arrived 30 minutes later, and moved in a little after 15 minutes - no doubt after a briefing of the situation and planned action -
####

45 minutes to respond to an active shooter is negligence. Every officer on duty and not on an active crime should have been onsite as quickly as possible and securing the area.

Every officer is trained and armed before becoming active in the field

 

[SkepticThinker]

What are you trying to say.. that the cops were wilfully negligent? I don't know that they were.
If indeed they were, you or I can't change that.
The world is what it is.
Will it get better?
I believe it will, under God's kingdom.
In the meantime, more people - including children, will die at the hands of evil men, and no human - not police, not government... will stop it. Why?
They can't... No matter how hard they try.

So, it's not going to get better. And there's nothing we can do to improve anything.
Let's just throw our hands up and hope some God does something?
That's the most apathetic garbage I've ever heard. The only people who can demonstrably make anything better is us. There is no evidence that any God(s) are going to swoop in and save us from anything. It's on us. And we need to do better rather than just giving up and waiting for some deity to fix it all.

 

[nPeace]

From your very first post
####
The trained and equipped officers arrived 30 minutes later, and moved in a little after 15 minutes - no doubt after a briefing of the situation and planned action -
####

45 minutes to respond to an active shooter is negligence. Every officer on duty and not on an active crime should have been onsite as quickly as possible and securing the area.

Every officer is trained and armed before becoming active in the field

The less equipped and less protected officers that tried to get to the shooter who were only 3 minutes behind the shooter, were fired upon.

The trained (I meant trained for this particular situation) and equipped officers arrived 30 minutes later, and moved in a little after 15 minutes

You have to remember, I am viewing the video.

So my perspective is not from the school. which puts me 10... or less, minutes behind then.
So okay, they arrive less then 20 minutes after the first response, and attempt.

Their judgment dictated that they need additional protection, tear gas canisters, and a strategy that might work better than the first, and they move toward the door roughly 25 minutes after.... or whatever people think...

You see that as negligence? Okay. Thanks.
I guess some people might also think that a surgeon calling for particular instruments and gear, in a situation that comes up during surgery, is negligent, if that takes a few minutes.
He decided to let the patient die, according to their view.

I guess the courts get to decide that.
Everyone has their opinion. Doesn't mean they are right, or have taken all the facts into consideration.

 

[nPeace]

So, it's not going to get better. And there's nothing we can do to improve anything.
Let's just throw our hands up and hope some God does something?
That's the most apathetic garbage I've ever heard. The only people who can demonstrably make anything better is us. There is no evidence that any God(s) are going to swoop in and save us from anything. It's on us. And we need to do better rather than just giving up and waiting for some deity to fix it all.

Well you are the one that said it. Is it any wonder it's garbage? Not for me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Well you are the one that said it. Is it any wonder it's garbage? Not for me.

Well that was rude.

You're the one who said it. Not me.