Do you believe in a creator of the universe/universes?

[ratiocinator]

Nuclei decay because they lose energy over time.

No, they don't. Alpha decay, for example, is a quantum tunnelling phenomena.

The singularity is what people believe caused the universe to exist.

Some people, maybe, but not real scientists who study cosmology. As I said (why did you just ignore it?) a singularity is something that happens to the equations - it's not a physical thing. We don't know what happened at the start of the big bang because we haven't got a theory of quantum gravity.

Time would have to go backwards because that's what the universe going on forever in the past sounds like.

That makes no sense.

Because a singularity wouldn't have the mind to create everything with such precision and order.

Why do you think a mind is needed (you seem to be question begging)? You are also ignoring tha fact that you're trying to explain order and precision with more order and precision (in the form of your favourite version of god) for which there is no explanation.

What explains the order and precision of your god? If you don't think it needs explaining then you're just special pleading.

You could know that there's one God because one God explains all of nature existing.

Begging the question. How do you know?

How can the passage of time be an illusion but not time?

The passage of time might be an artefact of our perception. The best (well tested) theory we have tells us that time is a direction through a space-time manifold. That's what the solid evidence is telling us.

God exists outside of time and space. He told Moses I am that I am. Jesus told the Pharisees I am that I am. A self existing God has more explanation than the order of everything we see coming from a singularity.

But there's no explanation for why this god exists (rather than another one, many gods, no gods, just a universe, or nothing at all) so you've not actually explained anything at all by inventing a god, you've just moved all the questions around a bit....

 

[Skywalker]

This is not an explanation of your point in saying, "There's a difference between not knowing what causes radiation decay and evidence that it's causeless?" I guess you abandoned that as pointless.



Don't you mean whether or not the cause was a god, there must be a cause for this universe to exist in its current state?

The law of cause and effect doesn't fail, because if an apple exists, there was a tree.

We agree that there is a cause for the universe existing, regardless of where it comes from.

 

[ppp]

The law of cause and effect doesn't fail, because if an apple exists, there was a tree.

You can phrase and rephrase that as much as you like, Physicists still say that there are causeless events.

We agree that there is a cause for the universe existing, regardless of where it comes from.

No. We don't agree on that. I don't know whether the universe has a cause, or 10 causes, or 123,456 causes, or zero causes, Neither do you. I am just honest enough to admit it.

 

[Skywalker]

The physicists say that radioactive decay and virtual particles are causeless.


Random people in the grocery store, perhaps.


It wouldn't. But even if it did, so what?


There is no evidence that a mind is necessary, or even vaguely relevant to the existence of precision and order. So, this assertion fails.

They still have an origin, even if you reject God as the explanation. The singularity would explain them.

Don't Darwinists believe in the singularity?

How is time going backwards forever possible? It sounds like a conundrum to me.

The precision and order of a drawing or blocks put together to spell a certain word, comes from a mind.

 

[Skywalker]

And, as I told you, that law fails at fundamental level. Therefore, cannot be used to study fundamental physics. Or to determine the ontology of things at those regimes.

Ciao

- viole

The law of cause and effect explains why life exists in nature. A tree came from a sapling which same from a seed. Are you saying that nature itself is self existing?

 

[viole]

The law of cause and effect explains why life exists in nature.

Irrelevant, even if what you said made any sense, since we are discussing the "singularity". And, life is a macroscopic thing, isn't it? It requires a thermodynamical context in order to develop, and therefore cannot be considered fundamental.

And, again, for fundamental things, the law of cause and effect is inapplicable. The reasons why it is not applicable are obvious, and left as a simple exercise to the reader. Spoiler: the law requires a pre-existing polarisation of time.

Are you saying that nature itself is self existing?

Why not? Assuming we know what you mean with nature and self existing.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Skywalker]

No, they don't. Alpha decay, for example, is a quantum tunnelling phenomena.



Some people, maybe, but not real scientists who study cosmology. As I said (why did you just ignore it?) a singularity is something that happens to the equations - it's not a physical thing. We don't know what happened at the start of the big bang because we haven't got a theory of quantum gravity.



That makes no sense.



Why do you think a mind is needed (you seem to be question begging)? You are also ignoring tha fact that you're trying to explain order and precision with more order and precision (in the form of your favourite version of god) for which there is no explanation.

What explains the order and precision of your god? If you don't think it needs explaining then you're just special pleading.



Begging the question. How do you know?



The passage of time might be an artefact of our perception. The best (well tested) theory we have tells us that time is a direction through a space-time manifold. That's what the solid evidence is telling us.



But there's no explanation for why this god exists (rather than another one, many gods, no gods, just a universe, or nothing at all) so you've not actually explained anything at all by inventing a god, you've just moved all the questions around a bit....

Explosions dont produce order. Big bangs create chaos. How did the Big Bang create a flower, rose, fruit trees, the sunset, sparrows, seasons, fish, swans.

Doesn't the law of infinite regress insinuate that times goes backward into the past?

If you took all the things out of your garage and made sure there is no plastic, rubber, wood, paint, and metal, would a car develop? No. Only order and precision can create that car, not chaos. God being self existing explains the order and precision of God. I believe that nature hints at the same God I believe in, because there's nothing in nature that reveals there is a God of the sun or a God of the flowers. That explains the order and precision of my God-that there would be no need for there to be a god of certain aspects of nature.

One God is all there needs to be for nature to exist and polytheistic gods aren't Gods of holiness and justice and love for their creation.

By passage of time, do you mean people thinking about how time is wierd, or people saying things like time goes so fast?

This God exists rather than just no gods or a universe or nothing at all because those dont explain order and precision. I dont believe in many gods because the gods of polytheism don't have a holy and just character and they don't talk about sin. The gods of other monotheistic religions seem more focused on rituals than relationship, although even in protestant Christianity there are many rituals and false teachings, so I'm not even advocating any pastor.

 

[Skywalker]

You can phrase and rephrase that as much as you like, Physicists still say that there are causeless events.


No. We don't agree on that. I don't know whether the universe has a cause, or 10 causes, or 123,456 causes, or zero causes, Neither do you. I am just honest enough to admit it.

Whether you believe in the singularity or in God, nothing is ultimately causeless.

I agree with you that we are not knowers we are believers, either in God or not in God.

 

[ratiocinator]

Explosions dont produce order. Big bangs create chaos.

The BB wasn't an explosion and it had low entropy probably because the Weyl curvature was zero.

How did the Big Bang create a flower, rose, fruit trees, the sunset, sparrows, seasons, fish, swans.

Look it up, it's not a secret.

Doesn't the law of infinite regress insinuate that times goes backward into the past?

Time extends backwards anyway - at least as far as the BB. An infinite past just means that it extends backwards without limit.

If you took all the things out of your garage and made sure there is no plastic, rubber, wood, paint, and metal, would a car develop? No.

Seriously?

God being self existing explains the order and precision of God.

How?

One God is all there needs to be for nature to exist and polytheistic gods aren't Gods of holiness and justice and love for their creation.

That's just a statement of your faith. There is no reasoning or evidence in it.

By passage of time, do you mean people thinking about how time is wierd, or people saying things like time goes so fast?

I mean that time seems to flow: "People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." -- Albert Einstein.

This God exists rather than just no gods or a universe or nothing at all because those dont explain order and precision.

Neither does your god because it itself must be more ordered than the universe. As I keep saying, you can't explain order by inventing something even more ordered which itself has no explanation.

I dont believe in many gods because the gods of polytheism don't have a holy and just character and they don't talk about sin. The gods of other monotheistic religions seem more focused on rituals than relationship...

So why are those reasons not to believe in them? Do you think reality is under some sort of obligation to be to your personal liking?

 

[Skywalker]

Irrelevant, even if what you said made any sense, since we are discussing the "singularity". And, life is a macroscopic thing, isn't it? It requires a thermodynamical context in order to develop, and therefore cannot be considered fundamental.

And, again, for fundamental things, the law of cause and effect is inapplicable. The reasons why it is not applicable are obvious, and left as a simple exercise to the reader. Spoiler: the law requires a pre-existing polarisation of time.


Why not? Assuming we know what you mean with nature and self existing.

Ciao

- viole

The Second Law of thermodynamics doesn't disprove the law of cause and effect. Life isn't fundamental to the concept of the singularity, I agree on that, but I dont think the singularity even directly has a role in life existing.

Nature meaning the processes that cause plants to grow.

 

[ratiocinator]

Whether you believe in the singularity or in God, nothing is ultimately causeless.

Science says you are wrong. And, as I keep saying, the 'singularity' is not a thing.

 

[ratiocinator]

Don't Darwinists believe in the singularity?

It's got absolutely nothing to do with "Darwinism" or evolution.

 

[ppp]

Whether you believe in the singularity or in God, nothing is ultimately causeless.

Your word isn't good enough.

 

[Skywalker]

The BB wasn't an explosion and it had low entropy probably because the Weyl curvature was zero.



Look it up, it's not a secret.



Time extends backwards anyway - at least as far as the BB. An infinite past just means that it extends backwards without limit.



Seriously?



How?



That's just a statement of your faith. There is no reasoning or evidence in it.



I mean that time seems to flow: "People like us who believe in physics know that the distinction between past, present and future is only a stubbornly persistent illusion." -- Albert Einstein.



Neither does your god because it itself must be more ordered than the universe. As I keep saying, you can't explain order by inventing something even more ordered which itself has no explanation.



So why are those reasons not to believe in them? Do you think reality is under some sort of obligation to be to your personal liking?

It was still an expansion of condensed material. How did that create the order that exists?

The Big Bang doesn't explain how DNA developed and it doesn't change that mutations have limits.

Time doesn't expand backwards. Time is going forward. Time can't expand backwards without limit.

Why do you disagree with my analogy?

God being self existent isn't chaotic like a piece of matter expanding into everything we have. It takes more faith to believe that. I agree with you that nobody knows everything, so we are believers in what we say, not knowers.

Polytheistic gods don't make sense. They marry, which puts them at the level of humans. They are distant, similar to the gods of deism. Zeus wasn't a god of holiness or love for people or being against sin. One God created everything. Why would there be a god of lightning?

Time seems to flow because we notice that time exists. The two concepts are related. Time feeling so fast or so slow might be our perception, but past, present and future are real, even though there's no answer for how time works.

A self existing God has an explanation. God just is. It takes more faith to believe a singularity created all the order that exists.

Morality shows that God is holy, just, and cares if people sin. I dont believe in Jesus because of my personal liking. Its easier to not believe in Jesus because it doesn't involve changes or accountability before your Creator.

 

[ratiocinator]

It was still an expansion of condensed material. How did that create the order that exists?

As I said, it was a state of low entropy. This gets complicated and there is some debate but the evidence for what happened is plentiful.

The Big Bang doesn't explain how DNA developed and it doesn't change that mutations have limits.

No, you're looking at the wrong part of science.

Time doesn't expand backwards. Time is going forward. Time can't expand backwards without limit.

I didn't say 'expand', I said 'extend'. The amount of time in the past direction is at least 13 billion years, why can't it be infinite?

God being self existent isn't chaotic like a piece of matter expanding into everything we have. It takes more faith to believe that.

No, it doesn't; we have lots of evidence.

Polytheistic gods don't make sense. They marry, which puts them at the level of humans. They are distant, similar to the gods of deism. Zeus wasn't a god of holiness or love for people or being against sin. One God created everything. Why would there be a god of lightning?

Why not? Once again you're just expounding your own faith. Where is the reasoning or evidence?

Time seems to flow because we notice that time exists. The two concepts are related. Time feeling so fast or so slow might be our perception, but past, present and future are real, even though there's no answer for how time works.

We have a very good (well tested) theory of space-time, why should I take any notice of your ill-informed opinions?

A self existing God has an explanation. God just is.

Why can't the space-time manifold just be? That is actually what we'd expect because time is internal to it. The manifold itself would not be subject to time. We don't need to invent a god to have something that "just is".

It takes more faith to believe a singularity created all the order that exists.

Jeez - how many more times do I need to tell you that I don't believe in a singularity? Thinking it's a real thing is a pop-science misunderstanding.

Morality shows that God is holy, just, and cares if people sin.

How? Morality is a human behaviour; a set of conventions that are adopted by societies. It certainly isn't fixed - the god of the bible didn't condemn slavery, for example.

 

[Subduction Zone]

It was still an expansion of condensed material. How did that create the order that exists?

Let's not use biased terms. Order arose from the fact that the material was not uniformly distributed. Gravity did the rest.

The Big Bang doesn't explain how DNA developed and it doesn't change that mutations have limits.

Why should it? And what do you mean by "mutations have limits"? It appears that you are attempting to bring evolution into a topic that has nothing to do with evolution.

Time doesn't expand backwards. Time is going forward. Time can't expand backwards without limit.

Why do you disagree with my analogy?

Was there an earlier analogy? The above is more of a tautology.

God being self existent isn't chaotic like a piece of matter expanding into everything we have. It takes more faith to believe that. I agree with you that nobody knows everything, so we are believers in what we say, not knowers.

Okay, you have faith. The problem is that faith does not appear to be a pathway to the truth.

Polytheistic gods don't make sense. They marry, which puts them at the level of humans. They are distant, similar to the gods of deism. Zeus wasn't a god of holiness or love for people or being against sin. One God created everything. Why would there be a god of lightning?

If you look at the God of the Old Testament there is not that much difference between that God and polytheistic gods except for the number. There is just as much evidence for polytheistic gods as there is for a monotheistic god.

Time seems to flow because we notice that time exists. The two concepts are related. Time feeling so fast or so slow might be our perception, but past, present and future are real, even though there's no answer for how time works.

A self existing God has an explanation. God just is. It takes more faith to believe a singularity created all the order that exists.

Morality shows that God is holy, just, and cares if people sin. I dont believe in Jesus because of my personal liking. Its easier to not believe in Jesus because it doesn't involve changes or accountability before your Creator.

NO. A self existing God is only a claim. It is not an explanation. By the way I would drop the morality argument since the God of the Bible is not exactly moral.

 

[Skywalker]

Science says you are wrong. And, as I keep saying, the 'singularity' is not a thing.

The singularity is what people believe was the matter that became the expansion of condensed material that became the universe as we know it today.

 

[ratiocinator]

The singularity is what people believe was the matter that became the expansion of condensed material that became the universe as we know it today.

Only people who are ignorant of science...

 

[Skywalker]

As I said, it was a state of low entropy. This gets complicated and there is some debate but the evidence for what happened is plentiful.



No, you're looking at the wrong part of science.



I didn't say 'expand', I said 'extend'. The amount of time in the past direction is at least 13 billion years, why can't it be infinite?



No, it doesn't; we have lots of evidence.



Why not? Once again you're just expounding your own faith. Where is the reasoning or evidence?



We have a very good (well tested) theory of space-time, why should I take any notice of your ill-informed opinions?



Why can't the space-time manifold just be? That is actually what we'd expect because time is internal to it. The manifold itself would not be subject to time. We don't need to invent a god to have something that "just is".



Jeez - how many more times do I need to tell you that I don't believe in a singularity? Thinking it's a real thing is a pop-science misunderstanding.



How? Morality is a human behaviour; a set of conventions that are adopted by societies. It certainly isn't fixed - the god of the bible didn't condemn slavery, for example.

What was that material, if it wasn't the singularity.

We were talking about nature.

You mentioned that time can go backwards and I was explaining my differing feelings.

Why do you think material expanding into everything we have is more orderly than a self existing God creating the universe?

The idea of Jesus having a wife sounds blasphemous to me because I believe Jesus was God. Zeus is not depicted as being holy. Do you think Zeus is described as a personal, loving God?

How is noticing that time exists an illusion?

A space time manifold wouldn't have creative abilities that a painter or a designer would.

I agree with you that there is no singularity.

Morality is absolute. We all know that lying, stealing, gossiping, using foul language, and cheating is wrong. Slavery in the Bible was about paying off debts. It wasn't race based slavery.

 

[Skywalker]

Your word isn't good enough.

The Law of Cause and Effect is indisputable and universal when it comes to everything in the universe. Everything in the universe has a cause behind its existence. Our ancestors caused us, their ancestors caused them. But there is no infinite regression of that. There is a First Cause that created that first effect. Something can't just come out of nothing all by itself.