Do you believe in a creator of the universe/universes?

[ppp]

@Skywalker #193

 

[Skywalker]

Let's not use biased terms. Order arose from the fact that the material was not uniformly distributed. Gravity did the rest.



Why should it? And what do you mean by "mutations have limits"? It appears that you are attempting to bring evolution into a topic that has nothing to do with evolution.



Was there an earlier analogy? The above is more of a tautology.



Okay, you have faith. The problem is that faith does not appear to be a pathway to the truth.



If you look at the God of the Old Testament there is not that much difference between that God and polytheistic gods except for the number. There is just as much evidence for polytheistic gods as there is for a monotheistic god.


NO. A self existing God is only a claim. It is not an explanation. By the way I would drop the morality argument since the God of the Bible is not exactly moral.

How can gravity make material that is not uniformly distributed order?

We were talking about nature.

How does time going backwards work?

What order is involved with condensed material expanding into everything we have?

God in the Old Testament didn't have wives. Polytheistic gods weren't described as first and foremost holy and righteous but also longsuffering. They didn't die for the sins of their creation. How is Asherah holy and loving?

How is the God of the Bible not exactly moral?

 

[Skywalker]

Only people who are ignorant of science...

Why do you believe the other explanation for the expansion of the universe makes more sense?

 

[Subduction Zone]

How can gravity make material that is not uniformly distributed order?

Gravity "sucks".

We were talking about nature.

How does time going backwards work?

Who claimed time goes backwards?

What order is involved with condensed material expanding into everything we have?

This is a poorly asked question. I do not know what you mean.

God in the Old Testament didn't have wives. Polytheistic gods weren't described as first and foremost holy and righteous but also longsuffering. They didn't die for the sins of their creation. How is Asherah holy and loving?

I didn't claim that he did. Why even make that statement. And yes, some polytheistic gods were described as first and foremost. By the way, that God of the Bible is not described as holy and righteous. He is described as evil and vane. They claim that he is holy and righteous but cannot support that claim.

How is the God of the Bible not exactly moral?

Let's see, genocide, slavery, unjust punishment. The list goes on. You should be asking how is the God of the Bible moral.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Why do you believe the other explanation for the expansion of the universe makes more sense?

One should accept the explanations supported by objective evidence.

 

[Skywalker]

Gravity "sucks".



Who claimed time goes backwards?



This is a poorly asked question. I do not know what you mean.


I didn't claim that he did. Why even make that statement. And yes, some polytheistic gods were described as first and foremost. By the way, that God of the Bible is not described as holy and righteous. He is described as evil and vane. They claim that he is holy and righteous but cannot support that claim.



Let's see, genocide, slavery, unjust punishment. The list goes on. You should be asking how is the God of the Bible moral.

How does gravity explain creation, order, art, and design, that you see in nature?

Infinite regress insinuates that if not time, the condensed material that expands into everything we have, goes backwards.

I was asking how you think condensed material expanding into everything we have, works.

Psalms describes God as righteous and Isaiah as holy. The Bible never says that God created evil. That's based on a misinterpretation of Isaiah 45:7.

Genocide is based off of ethnicity and slavery in the US was based off of race. The Old Testament didn't have genocide and what seemed like slavery was indentured servitude.

 

[Subduction Zone]

How does gravity explain creation, order, art, and design, that you see in nature?

Infinite regress insinuates that if not time, the condensed material that expands into everything we have, goes backwards.

I was asking how you think condensed material expanding into everything we have, works.

"Creation"? That is a loaded term. Try asking a proper question.

And no, there is no insinuation. We can calculate back to the Big Bang. Or actually a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang. That does not mean that time goes backward.

And once again, the expansion of the Big Bang did not evenly distribute mass. As a result stars formed. In areas of higher density mass attracted itself to other mass. In other words gravity sucks. Stars were formed. Do you understand this?

Psalms describes God as righteous and Isaiah as holy. The Bible never says that God created evil. That's based on a misinterpretation of Isaiah 45:7.

Does it? I am betting that it only claims that God is righteous. Claims are worthless. The Bible regularly describes God as evil.

Genocide is based off of ethnicity and slavery in the US was based off of race. The Old Testament didn't have genocide and what seemed like slavery was indentured servitude.

Wow ! A Christian that never read the Bible. Don't you remember that Moses was told to commit genocide more than once? I can provide the verses. And no, there is no difference between OT slavery and slavery in the Old South. You are conflating how fellow Jews were to be treated, they were supposed to be under indentured servitude and how foreigners were treated. They were life long slaves that could be passed on to one's children. And not only that it also tells people how to trick their fellow Hebrews into being slaves for the rest of their lives. Plus daughters could be sold into sex slavery. Hebrew or not. That was life long too so I guess that it was worse than Old South slavery.

 

[Skywalker]

Only people who are ignorant of science...

Just because I believe in God doesn't mean I don't believe in science. God created science.

 

[Skywalker]

"Creation"? That is a loaded term. Try asking a proper question.

And no, there is no insinuation. We can calculate back to the Big Bang. Or actually a tiny fraction of a second after the Big Bang. That does not mean that time goes backward.

And once again, the expansion of the Big Bang did not evenly distribute mass. As a result stars formed. In areas of higher density mass attracted itself to other mass. In other words gravity sucks. Stars were formed. Do you understand this?



Does it? I am betting that it only claims that God is righteous. Claims are worthless. The Bible regularly describes God as evil.



Wow ! A Christian that never read the Bible. Don't you remember that Moses was told to commit genocide more than once? I can provide the verses. And no, there is no difference between OT slavery and slavery in the Old South. You are conflating how fellow Jews were to be treated, they were supposed to be under indentured servitude and how foreigners were treated. They were life long slaves that could be passed on to one's children. And not only that it also tells people how to trick their fellow Hebrews into being slaves for the rest of their lives. Plus daughters could be sold into sex slavery. Hebrew or not. That was life long too so I guess that it was worse than Old South slavery.

I was talking about the nature and art like design that you see when you look around you.

The Bible never says that God created evil. People take that verse out of context. Urban Legends of the Old Testament: God Created Evil — Moral Apologetics

The Legendary Teaching on Isaiah 45:7

Isaiah 45:7 teaches that God is the cause of moral evil in our world. The KJV of Isaiah 45:7 reads: “I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create evil, I am the Lord who does all these things.” On his blog “Daylight Atheism,” Adam Lee refers to Isaiah 45:7 as one of “the most shocking” passages in the Bible because it reminds us that, “Evil exists because God created it.”[1] Theologians attempting to resolve the dilemma of how and why evil exists in a world under the control of an all-loving, omnipotent, and omniscient deity “can pack it in and go home now,” because this text (and others like it) inform us that evil comes directly from God.[2] Christians mistakenly believe that God is pure and holy when their own Scriptures teach the opposite.



Introduction and Countering the Legend

A rather simple matter of translation corrects the mistaken idea that Isaiah 45:7 views God as the source and creator of evil in the world. The majority of modern translations do not follow the KJV in translating the Hebrew word ra`ah in verse 7 as “evil” but instead offer the translation “calamity” (ESV, NAS, NET, NKJV) or “disaster” (CSB, NIV). The point of the passage then is that God brings or causes “disaster” when he acts in judgment. The blog mentioned above accuses the modern translations of attempting to soften the actual teaching of Isaiah 45:7, but the fact that the Hebrew word ra`ah can refer both to moral “evil” and “disaster/calamity” is recognized in all Hebrew lexicons and easily demonstrated from the biblical text.[3] John Oswalt notes that the range of meaning for the Hebrew word ra`ah is similar to that of the English word “bad” in that it can refer to moral evil, misfortune, or that which does not conform to a real or imagined standard.[4]

The Old Testament prophets often made word plays based on the semantic range of ra`ah. On more than one occasion, the Lord commands the people through the prophet Jeremiah to turn from their “evil” (ra`ah) way so that he might relent from bringing upon them the “disaster” (ra`ah) he had planned for them (cf. Jer 26:3; 36:3, 7). The word play effectively communicated how the Lord’s punishments would fit their crimes and justly correspond to the people’s actions. The same idea is found in Jonah 3:10, which states that when God saw that the Ninevites had turned from their “evil” (ra`ah) ways, he did not bring upon them the “disaster” (ra`ah) he had threatened to bring against their city.

The translation of ra`ah as “calamity” or “disaster” in Isaiah 45:7 also makes sense in light of the message of the entire oracle found in 45:1–7. In verses 1–4, the Lord promises to raise up the pagan ruler Cyrus, the future king of Persia, and to enable him to subdue nations as a means of gaining Israel’s release from exile in Babylon. The Lord would remove every obstacle that stood in the way of Cyrus and would give to him the treasures of the peoples he conquered. Cyrus conquered Babylon in 539 B.C. and issued a decree allowing the Jews to return to their homeland in 538 B.C. The Lord would accomplish his purposes through Cyrus because he is the one true God over all of history (v. 5). Yahweh’s ability to announce his plans in advance and then to carry them out would demonstrate his sovereignty and incomparability to all peoples (vv. 6-7). Verse 7 concludes the oracle with a powerful assertion of the Lord’s control over both nature and history. He is the one who created the light and darkness, and as the creator, he is also the one who uses both “success” (shalom) and “disaster” (ra`ah) in the working out of his plans within history.

The fact that ra`ah carries the meaning of “disaster” or “calamity” is further reflected by how it is contrasted here to shalom, which means “peace, health, or well-being.” As Ben Witherington explains, the text is not saying that God created good and evil, but rather that “he brings both blessing and curse, even on his own people.” [5] The Lord had brought “disaster” on his people in the judgment of exile, but he would also bring the shalom of restoration and return. Israel’s shalom would also mean “disaster” for Babylon. This understanding of Isaiah 45:7 also accords with the clear teaching of James 1:13–17 that God is not the author of evil.

Rather than attributing the origin of moral evil to God, Isaiah 45:7 instead offers a strong affirmation of God’s sovereignty. Gary Smith comments, “Everything that happens in the world is connected to God’s activity, whether it appears to be good or bad. It all works together to fulfill God’s purposes, even if people do not understand or accept these things as the work of God.”[6] God is sovereign over all things but not in a mechanistic way that removes human ethical choices and responsibility. Even when the Lord “raises” or “stirs up” kings and armies to carry out his divine judgments (cf. Isa 9:11; Jer 51:1), these entities acted because of their own evil desires rather than divine compulsion and were fully culpable for their crimes (cf. Isa 10:5–14; Jer 50:29; 51:7, 33–39). In Zechariah 1:15, the Lord states that he is “fiercely angry” at the nations who had gone too far in executing punishment on his own people with whom he was only “a little angry.” The fact that God holds these nations responsible for their actions reflects that they acted on their own accord and that they exceeded God’s intentions. Terence Fretheim comments, “The exercise of divine wrath against their excessiveness shows that the nations were not puppets in the hand of God. They retained their power to make decisions and execute policies that flew in the face of the will of God.”[7]

The Bible never condones sex slavery. There's evidence the Midianite girls were to be taken as wives, and that God didn't order them to be spared, it was something that Moses decided to do. What about God’s cruelty against the Midianites

The 32,000 girls who were absorbed/assimilated into Israel would have been actually a small number. According to the distribution of them, the 12,000 ‘soldiers’ received 16,000 (half of them), making an average of between 1 and 2 per household, depending on the soliders-per-household ratio. The other half (16,000) was distributed throughout all of Israel, meaning that very few families would get one. This would still have been some hardship for the Israelite families, who at this time are still nomadic peoples without any material base from which to live. More than one commentator has noted that this seems to be a surprise act of mercy, and it is interesting to note that Whiston, in a footnote on his 18th-century translation of Josephus’ account of this passage [Antiq, VII] argues that this sparing of the little girls is a surprise of mercy, given the practical demands of this type of combat in the OT/ANE (which we will discuss later):



“The slaughter of all the Midianite women that had prostituted themselves to the lewd Israelites, and the preservation of those that had not been guilty therein; the last of which were no fewer than thirty-two thousand…and both by the particular command of God, are highly remarkable, and shew that, even in nations otherwise for their wickedness doomed to destruction, the innocent were sometimes providentially taken care of, and delivered from that destruction”



Later, when Israel was more established and settled in the land, and had adequate economic means, they would be able to absorb all the women and children (from hostile-but-conquered foreign cities), but at this early stage this was quite an impossibility. They had no need for “slaves,” nor means to support them at this time.

 

[rational experiences]

The status using words, was scientific and a self contradiction.

Science says what the universal creation became meant that what was or use to be higher form is gone, completely removed.

Then today are searching for the status origins.

Eternal, is a descriptive unconditional status. Where the spirit who unconditionally loves us, the Creator self, separate from God. God having been the bodies O that went to Hell.

Reason.

Space, the part of the eternal surrounding the spirit entities. Androgynous.

Who had sung up in a research O God sounds. The surrounding mass thinned, change to the language was enacted....the too late I never should have thought to re search an idea. Who was the other spirit. Being the language.

Spiritually it was explained to me, that the spirit language in the eternal was different in self presence to the androgynous family. And they wondered at its presence by term, how to explain reason for change to their body. And how God O fell out of it. Why space became space and how the creation energy, the burnt eternal mass is just a loss....but never ends completely.

Space when God o O bodies burst became the surrounding eternal burning, yet being higher than held sounds o O God was part of the reason that saved God from complete destruction. The removal of complete body lost from the eternal, allowing the eternal to own a hole, being space is because of that original burn.

In burning the energy mass does become less and a portion of change removes the presence mass of the energy as a body, but then a residue is left. Due to it never being enabled to become space....but when it drops down to the floor of space it then finally releases more space to be enacted as increase.

Science then quotes energy cannot completely be totally 100 per cent used up.

If science, just a human who can think, owning natural awareness the same as everyone else, did not believe that the eternal still existed, they would not express the same story again and again and again......in full awareness as a spiritual human is, the eternal the portion not converted into creation still exists.

It is where and how we came into being from that higher place of unconditional love/spirit that was never God.

No man is God is stated as a summation of a spiritual human being who proved that we came from a place of spirit. That he endured what his human science Father caused to his baby life, again and again and again. Copying in a small way what his thesis is about the cosmology, as that proof of what he believes.

Self combustion was in fact introduced into natural life by the scientist why we named him the Satanist.

Jesus a termed teaching reference of a male/man about a male/man incorrect choices against his own person, quotes NO MAN IS GOD and it is true.

Believe in spirit eternal or not, you prove by how you behave and what you believe that you are as a scientist no different to anyone else. Yet as a self your personal wants and what organization you belong to is how you express if you are correct or incorrect.

 

[ratiocinator]

What was that material, if it wasn't the singularity.

Here is a summary of the current ideas: Chronology of the universe - The very early universe

The idea of Jesus having a wife sounds blasphemous to me because I believe Jesus was God. Zeus is not depicted as being holy. Do you think Zeus is described as a personal, loving God?

What's this got to do with anything I said?

A space time manifold wouldn't have creative abilities that a painter or a designer would.

And...?

Morality is absolute.

Evidence? How do we find out what it is? Where is the objective test?

We all know that lying, stealing, gossiping, using foul language, and cheating is wrong.

What's wrong with "foul" language?

Slavery in the Bible was about paying off debts. It wasn't race based slavery.

And you think that makes it moral do you? I don't. See, where is your absolute morality?

 

[ratiocinator]

Why do you believe the other explanation for the expansion of the universe makes more sense?

As I keep on explaining, the singularity is what happens to the equations and that indicates that they probably aren't applicable at that point and we need a theory that unites quantum field theory with general relativity. We don't have such a theory, only hypotheses, such as string theory and loop quantum gravity, both of which do not predict a singularity.

 

[ratiocinator]

The Law of Cause and Effect is indisputable and universal when it comes to everything in the universe.

Simply false.

 

[Skywalker]

Here is a summary of the current ideas: Chronology of the universe - The very early universe



What's this got to do with anything I said?



And...?



Evidence? How do we find out what it is? Where is the objective test?



What's wrong with "foul" language?



And you think that makes it moral do you? I don't. See, where is your absolute morality?

A lot of laws involve onerous obligations that people don't like. Most child support money, the amount that people don't like to pay, probably is multiple times more than they would spend on their kid if they lived with them, but people have to pay that amount of money to show respect for their family.

 

[Skywalker]

As I keep on explaining, the singularity is what happens to the equations and that indicates that they probably aren't applicable at that point and we need a theory that unites quantum field theory with general relativity. We don't have such a theory, only hypotheses, such as string theory and loop quantum gravity, both of which do not predict a singularity.

How does quantum field theory and general relativity explain what really existed at the start of the universe?

 

[Skywalker]

Simply false.

How is it not indisputable when it comes to everything in the universe?

 

[ratiocinator]

A lot of laws involve onerous obligations that people don't like. Most child support money, the amount that people don't like to pay, probably is multiple times more than they would spend on their kid if they lived with them, but people have to pay that amount of money to show respect for their family.

And you think this justifies owning people as property, do you?

How does quantum field theory and general relativity explain what really existed at the start of the universe?

Please try to pay attention. No - we need something that combines them. We have hypotheses, but no tested theory.

How is it not indisputable when it comes to everything in the universe?

It's simply wrong according to modern science - specifically quantum mechanics. There is literally no reason why a particular radioactive nucleus decays rather than another because it's a quantum tunnelling effect. There is a hypothesis that the start of the universe (or multiverse) may have been a quantum tunnelling event too.

 

[Mahmoud Ali]

Do you believe in a creator, a conscious force/spirit/energy or being who created this universe/universes?

Lessons from the Guidance of The Holy Quran, From the Series of Knowing Allah –– Belssings of Allah – 2nd Lesson

Lectured By Mr. Hussein BadrEldein Al-houthi

On 19th JAN 2002, Sa’ada – Yemen

In the name of Allah the Most Merciful.

Praises to Allah Almighty, and peace and blessings of Allah be upon our master Muhammad and his good and pure family.

The topic is still about the noble verse: {And that who entrusts ALLAH (God) and His Messenger, and those who have believed, then those (The party of Allah) are the victorious.”(Al-Ma`idah: 56)

And we said: It is very important to know who the soldiers (Entrusted) of Allah are, and to know how to be a soldier. The certain thing to know, is that the knowing of Allah a sufficient knowledge, A wide knowledge, is necessary in order for a person to be among the Soldiers of Allah. Because one of the most prominent characteristics of the soldiers of Allah Almighty is that they have great Trust in Allah, and their trust in Allah is very strong.


Such a Strong trust in Allah is only achieved through knowing Allah a very well knowledge, and we do not mean by his knowledge (glory be to Him the Almighty) what is reconciled to him in the books of theology, but the extensive knowledge of the Almighty through the Noble Qur’an, a knowledge of his perfection, a knowledge of the blessings bestowed upon his servants, a knowledge of the manifestations of his power and evidence of his wisdom, and the manifestations of his mercy. Also knowing the severity of his punishment, knowing what he prepared for his soldiers (Entrusted), and what he prepared for his enemies, knowing the special care which his guardians (Soldiers) will receive from him, and knowing that he is the predominant, this is the extensive knowledge.


Yesterday the topic was about the divinity of Almighty Allah, is to know his divinity, glory be to Him, what does it mean for us, And that is to know that there is no god but Allah, and as the Almighty said to His Messenger Muhammad (may Allah blessings be upon him and his family): {So know that there is no god but Allah, and you shall ask for forgiveness of your mistake and of the believers} (Muhammad: from verse 19) and whenever we have (by Allah's permission, success and enlightenment) a sufficient knowledge of the meaning of “there is no god but Allah”, sufficient knowledge of the meaning of his divinity, that he is our god and we are his servants, then this is considered as one of the most important benefits and the greatest gains that if a person spends his life Long to establish its meanings in himself then it would be of the greatest blessings he gets throughout his life.


Allah Almighty is our God and we are His servants, and this means that He alone has the right to have the command in us, and the judgment in us, He who has the right to legislate for us, direct us and guide us, He is the only one who has the right to rule over us, He who has the right to manage our affairs ; Because we are his servants, he is the one who has the right not for someone else to interfere in our affairs in a way that contradicts with what he - glory be to Him - wants for us and from us. He is the only one who has the right for us to obey, and we obey whoever obeyed Him from His obedience.


This important rule and wide rule is that which separates you from every god on earth, whether represented in your desires, or represented in a person, or represented in anything of this world. So when you separate yourself from everything to become your God except Allah, then you achieve the meaning of (There is no god but Allah), and then you will be granted from the sources his pride, from the strength of his unity, from the wisdom of his unity, from the knowledge of his unity, as Allah Almighty said in Yusef (Joseph) the profit of Allah and in the Prophet of Allah, Moses: {And when he has reached his strength, we gave to him wisdom and knowledge. And that is how I reward The good-doers} (Yusef: 22)

 

[PearlSeeker]

Do you believe in a creator, a conscious force/spirit/energy or being who created this universe/universes?

I believe there is infinite intelligence reflected in universe but I'm not sure if universe is creation or emanation or...

 

[rational experiences]

I believe there is infinite intelligence reflected in universe but I'm not sure if universe is creation or emanation or...

Yet the male self, scientist thinker, bio consciousness is making all of those claims as consciousness, giving descriptive analogies to all bodies that have existed in that spatially owned supported presence, a very long time before you personally began thinking about it.

Have you not yet concluded that you are self possessed as a male, a human, a scientist, a theist with inferences said by your own person as if you owned an intent of being the actual Creator of all bodies, including owning all those powers inside of your own bio life?

For that is how I perceive how you express your mentality, just as a bio human, who ignores that sperm and an ovary by 2 human being parents created you, and you personally are only as old as what you are today.

Yet say you are 30 and claim the Universe existed for billions of years......how could you possibly believe you own any status on Earth that quotes control of a "beginning". When science, a machine is only taken from the mass of stone. It is not taken from energy in its beginnings/origins.

Energy its own self he says exists. I own a formula that quotes how to abstract it.

I never owned any formula that quoted how energy was created, for science imposes that everything or anything began somewhere. What you claim you seek how to invent energy...then you alter the subject and claim you can channel it,

So if a human did a study on their human science brother beginnings and wrote a list of anything and everything he has ever claimed, surely you would be embarrassed.