Do you believe in Caste-System ?

[atanu]

Thank you for jumping into this discussion Atanu

You asked for questions:

1. Are we saying that people of the lower (working) varnas are less advanced spiritually (thamasic guna predominates) than those of the Brahmin varna (stavic guna predominates)? And that the reincarnation process incarnates them in the varna that is best for them?

You are always welcome, George

My answer is "Not exactly".

It is said that we are eternally free pure awareness. But Varna (the veil) hides that reality and binds us, as if, in cycles of cause and effect.

The Varna that we land into is our own doing .... due to combination of mental nature and acts.

Dharmic-religious prescriptions are supposed to be designed for removal of the veil.

A brahmin may be furthest from moksha because his duties may be difficult to adhere to. A brahmin cannot harbour desire or lust and should work only for welfare of all, generally as a teacher/priest. OTOH, a so called lowly Shudra may be very near to Moksha, because his duties have no potential for mistake.

But again, in present day, much of this is not relevant for two reasons. Very few people are actually acting as per scriptural requirements. And, it is said that simple act of surrender is the easiest way.

 

[CynthiaCypher]

Any caste system whether it is based on religion or culture is a violation of the basic human right to self-determination. There is no getting around that.

 

[atanu]

Do you believe that some humans have more human-rights than others due to their Caste ?

If No, Than its Okay.
If Yes, Than why ?

Hello Chinu.

May I ask for a clarification? What you mean by caste? Do you mean 'kula-jati' or do you mean 'Varna'?

Kindly remember that as Race and Racism are not same, Caste and Casteism are also not same.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Any caste system whether it is based on religion or culture is a violation of the basic human right to self-determination. There is no getting around that.

^ This.

 

[atanu]

Any caste system whether it is based on religion or culture is a violation of the basic human right to self-determination. There is no getting around that.

I agree fully. The Varna Asrama dharma teaches that one's mental nature and one's actions determine one's station.

May i ask you a question, however? Do you think that the situation one finds oneself in, is not self determined? Do you believe that one's situation is determined by another?

 

[Madhuri]

Perhaps this thinking is why those in the lower castes are treated so unjustly... it basically says that being born in a low caste means you were a bad person in your previous lives. Perhaps its viewed as a punishment and something deserving?

If so, I can see why the attitude toward the lower caste people is so poor.

You are probably right, Pegg. But the 'lower' castes are not supposed to be considered low or degraded and the people are not supposed to be treated with less dignity and what so many Indian people don't seem to be aware of, due to a now long history of the system being manipulated, is that 'one's nature', which dictates caste, is not something we derive from our parents. If Varna, the actual Hindu system, were followed correctly, then any individual would be able to move from one status to another according to their natural inclination.

 

[Vinayaka]

Any caste system whether it is based on religion or culture is a violation of the basic human right to self-determination. There is no getting around that.

I agree, but don't limit it to caste .. (not suggesting you are) Don't forget the planet recently had apartheid, slavery, and still has ethnic cleansing here and there. All these were/are just as atrocious as caste.

On this page of this website ... https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~epandit/page3.html the only actual study cited was in 1963. The info was that intercaste marriage was becoming far more common. In 1963????? Here we are 50 years later folks.

 

[Madhuri]

For people who are aware of caste, and for those asking here, I'm a Dalit. All converts are Dalits.

I suppose I'm a Dalit too as I was born to converts.

 

[Vinayaka]

I'm curious to where people are getting their information these days. Who is doing the researching and exploring caste and how it actually is on the ground in India? Is it mostly hearsay, or real info you have first hand? I have been there twice now, and for the life of me, I could never figure it out. I actually have a better handle on it here in the diaspora than there.

On this page of this website ... https://www.mtholyoke.edu/~epandit/page3.html the only actual study cited was in 1963. The info was that intercaste marriage was becoming far more common. In 1963????? Here we are 50 years later folks.

 

[Father Heathen]

Do you believe that some humans have more human-rights than others due to their Caste ?

If No, Than its Okay.
If Yes, Than why ?

"Castes" are an artificial, arbitrary construct that only primitive societies embrace.

All humans should have the same level of freedom, rights, and equality regardless of their race, religion, nationality, class, gender, sexuality, etc.

 

[LuisDantas]

It is exceedingly clear that castes with differing levels of privileges and rights do exist in practice in all but the most unusual societies. That comes from societal support far more than from any inherent merits, of course. But it certainly happens.

Whether that is fair, whether that is necessary, whether they should be rigid and whether we lend them more significance than we should are all relevant questions, IMO.

Personally, I think it is very difficult for a human being to resist the lure of belief in some sort of Noble Caste whose protection we should seek, whose blame we should assign, and whose membership we end up craving. While many understand for at least some moments at a time the convenience of a true brotherhood of equals, in practice it can be a very frustrating and at least arguably unnatural goal to pursue.

 

[Vinayaka]

I suppose I'm a Dalit too as I was born to converts.

Fortunately I (and you too I presume) encounter very few people who are caste focused or caste obsessed.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is exceendingly clear that castes with differing levels of privileges and rights do exist in practice in all but the most unusual societies.

When I taught Brazil in Grade 8 Social here (part of the curriculum here then) most resources made it abundantly clear that it was very difficult to move out of the favelas. What's your assessment of that today?

 

[Chakra]

There have been many good responses on this thread regarding Caste System. This issue has been well settled, yet for some reason is brought up again and again.

I just have a question. Your input would be nice.

Sudra means "one who serves", meaning one who serves the other 3 classes. The question is if a person (we'll call him John) who is very intelligent and expert in scriptures helps a Guru (who is a Brahmin) teach his disciples, would he be considered a Sudra or a Brahmin? He is a Brahmin because he is very intelligent and scholarly. He is also a Sudra because he is serving a Brahmin (Guru). So, is he a Sudra, Brahmin, or both?

Regards

 

[Vinayaka]

This opinion piece gives me hope, Recent changes taking place in Indian Caste System but as to it's accuracy, who knows?

 

[LuisDantas]

When I taught Brazil in Grade 8 Social here (part of the curriculum here then) most resources made it abundantly clear that it was very difficult to move out of the favelas. What's your assessment of that today?

Most Brazilians live in some degree of denial of plain facts in that regard. It helps that we have so many people, so many natural resouces, and such a feeble grasp of basic ethics. In short, we have a long and proud tradition of admiration for succesfull thieves and con men.

It is reasonably easy to move out of the favelas... as long as you don't mind selling your virtue in exchange, some way or another. Otherwise it is all but impossible, but most Brazilians will simply not want to admit that. We live way too close to people of impressively different perceptions of the world, and the physical proximity leads to all kinds of self-imposed delusions about our place in the world and how much control we can or should have about it.

As a general rule, Brazilians despise the idea of working to attain wealth, but find sophisticated ways of stealing while appearing to be working instead. Corruption is all but openly accepted in all social classes, although not always consciously.

And a de facto caste system is very solidly a part of it, to the point that I wonder how many generations it would take to remove it even under ideal conditions. Brazilians are not only not equalitarian, but also rather unfamiliar with the very concept. When we come in contact with Europe, we often end up shell-shocked to some extent. It is difficult to accept that not everyone is so predatorial as we are.

 

[Vinayaka]

Sudra means "one who serves", meaning one who serves the other 3 classes. The question is if a person (we'll call him John) who is very intelligent and expert in scriptures helps a Guru (who is a Brahmin) teach his disciples, would he be considered a Sudra or a Brahmin? He is a Brahmin because he is very intelligent and scholarly. He is also a Sudra because he is serving a Brahmin (Guru). So, is he a Sudra, Brahmin, or both?

Regards

It's complicated, isn't it? Are you assuming the Guru would be a Brahmin, or are you saying in this case he happens to be a Brahmin? Gurus can come from all castes. Ramakrishna was a Brahmin, but Vivekenanda was a kshataya.

Brahmins really serve the other castes just by maintaining the temples, so does this make them shudras too? (See, it's complicated.)

 

[Vinayaka]

Most Brazilians live in some degree of denial of plain facts in that regard.

Sounds like Canada, Luis.

 

[Chakra]

It's complicated, isn't it? Are you assuming the Guru would be a Brahmin, or are you saying in this case he happens to be a Brahmin? Gurus can come from all castes. Ramakrishna was a Brahmin, but Vivekenanda was a kshataya.

Brahmins really serve the other castes just by maintaining the temples, so does this make them shudras too? (See, it's complicated.)

Yes, it is quite complicated. It just goes to show you that the system was really flexible. I don't think that the scriptures ever used the class names as a permanent classification.

As far as the OP is concerned, I don't understand why chinu-ji would want to ask such a question. No civilized human would ever say that other innocent humans are to be treated like trash. I don't understand the intent of this thread.

Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

Sounds like Canada, Luis.

I remember Sunstone mentioning something along those lines about the USA as well.

To be fair, it is probably too much to expect of actual people to simply accept that there are those born into privilege and there are those who are all but certain never to have much of a shot into it. We keep hoping to find our invitation into the club just around the corner, to the point of intentionally refusing to think about how unlikely that may be. It is just all too human.