Do you believe in Caste-System ?

[atanu]

A truly spiritually conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brāhmaṇa and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, a cow, and an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist.

And that is the goal of dharma.

 

[Pegg]

A truly spiritually conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brāhmaṇa and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, a cow, and an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist.

And that is the goal of dharma.

i agree with the concept, but if thats the case, why does hinduism even make room for such a caste system if it is contrary to being a spiritually conscious person?

Shouldn't hinduism promote things that facilitate that spiritual consciousness rather then impede it?

 

[atanu]

A truly spiritually conscious person does not make any distinction between species or castes. The brāhmaṇa and the outcaste may be different from the social point of view, or a dog, a cow, and an elephant may be different from the point of view of species, but these differences of body are meaningless from the viewpoint of a learned transcendentalist.

And that is the goal of dharma.

Gita 13.29

samam pasyan hi sarvatra
samavasthitam isvaram
na hinasty atmanatmanam
tato yati param gatim

Because he who sees the same Lord equally dwelling everywhere does not destroy the Self by the self; he goes to the highest goal.

 

[atanu]

i agree with the concept, but if thats the case, why does hinduism even make room for such a caste system if it is contrary to being a spiritually conscious person?

Shouldn't hinduism promote things that facilitate that spiritual consciousness rather then impede it?

Pegg, what percent of people blame society, environment, and others for their own ills?

And how many understand that one's own ills are primarily doing of one's own mind and own works?

Which of the above two is spiritually correct?

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, what percent of people blame society, environment, and others for their own ills?

And how many understand that one's own ills are primarily doing of one's own mind and own works?

Which of the above two is spiritually correct?

obviously the second option is the most spiritually enlightened. However, i dont see how this fits in with the idea of caste.

Being born into a particular caste is of no doing on your part...its purely coincidence which caste you are born into. Im absolutely convinced there are many good people in the lower castes and many bad people in the higher castes.

 

[George-ananda]

In the sense that some societies mark them as such from birth, yes, certainly.




How could anyone show evidence either way? It is even possible to test for the existence, much less composition, of a soul?

I think you misunderstood my question to Atanu. I know caste is determined by birth. My question was at a level above the physical, do some Hindus believe your birth into a caste was predetermined by rational determination by entities, or your own soul, prior to the incarnation. In other words, are you born into a caste that is best for your soul level needs.

 

[George-ananda]

Certain things are intrinsic to understanding of Hindu dharma. In Hindu dharma, Guna (quality of mind) and Karma (works) determine everything about a jiva ( living soul), including its rebirth.

For example, it is said in Gita that a person's predominant thoughts at his last moments determine his next body and station.

It is further said in Gita, that for a yogi who has lived a pure life, God ensures a birth in an environment that will be conducive for his sadhana.

So we can see a dynamic connection between Guna-Karma-Birth.

But a birth ensures nothing. A birth in a sattwik environment, among sadhus, is challenging. A small slip can cause fall.

Thank you. I think in a nut-shell the answer is 'Yes' to my question if Hindus believe birth into a varna-caste is determined by the past experiences of the soul.

Westerners think of this as a totally random process without consideration of Guna-Karma-Birth. They view life as starting from scratch at physical birth.

 

[LuisDantas]

I think you misunderstood my question to Atanu. I know caste is determined by birth. My question was at a level above the physical, do some Hindus believe your birth into a caste was predetermined by rational determination by entities, or your own soul, prior to the incarnation. In other words, are you born into a caste that is best for your soul level needs.

I probably did at that. Sorry.

 

[George-ananda]

Not in soul's intrinsic nature. No. All Souls are pure .. Brahman.

Here, I think we just have a terminology misunderstanding. I think of 'Soul' as a the reincarnating body that exists for many lifetimes. 'Spirit' is the term I use for the eternal spark (Brahman) that animates all bodies and souls.

 

[George-ananda]

Also I think not understood by westerners is that spiritual Hindus believe in brotherly love between all. In the world there are a variety different jobs and roles that must be performed for a society to function well.

How can Brahmins survive without farmers to provide food? Brahmins in turn provide provide spiritual sustenance to the farmers.

The system is not evil by design. But every societal system has evils because negative qualities of greed, anger, blame, ego status, etc bring about the evil.

 

[Vinayaka]

In other words, are you born into a caste that is best for your soul level needs.

Yes, but it's complicated and will vary by school. In a sense, because of karma the bully becomes the bullied. So a Brahmin who is abusing his station by cheating, etc. could easily be reborn as a worker as there may be no other way to rid himself of the karmas he created.

Hindus who are really aware of this principle.. karma is created every moment, behave dharmically, for they understand very well that those cruel actions will return to them. But any caste can fully understand karma.

This is also a reason to discard the notion that as a soul evolves, he also moves up in caste. I think this is a grave mistake by the individual, and if he thinks that way, his karma will come back to balance it all out. In other words, people of all castes should earn their respect.

 

[George-ananda]

Yes, but it's complicated and will vary by school. In a sense, because of karma the bully becomes the bullied. So a Brahmin who is abusing his station by cheating, etc. could easily be reborn as a worker as there may be no other way to rid himself of the karmas he created.

Hindus who are really aware of this principle.. karma is created every moment, behave dharmically, for they understand very well that those cruel actions will return to them. But any caste can fully understand karma.

This is also a reason to discard the notion that as a soul evolves, he also moves up in caste. I think this is a grave mistake by the individual, and if he thinks that way, his karma will come back to balance it all out. In other words, people of all castes should earn their respect.

Basically everyone needs to fulfill their dharma in life in brotherly love and respect. Agreed.

 

[atanu]

obviously the second option is the most spiritually enlightened. However, i dont see how this fits in with the idea of caste.

Being born into a particular caste is of no doing on your part...its purely coincidence which caste you are born into. Im absolutely convinced there are many good people in the lower castes and many bad people in the higher castes.

I will try, Pegg. Allow me some freedom.

The best that I like of Bible is: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

I take that as Absolute Truth. But, then how come we have rapists, plunderers, murderers etc. and also sages? If He is before All and if All are held in Him, how there are so called great sinners?

You may have your answer to that.

But, Hinduism begins by holding that all souls (Jiva- living beings) are pure and are essentially Atman (Spirit). The evident presence of sinners etc. are explained by invoking Varna (Veil) created through a dynamic process involving Guna-s (Mental modes)-Karma (Works)-Samsara (continual coming and going of soul). The Varna (Veil) covers up the pure Spirit nature of living beings who operate under mode of ignorance, driven by particular desires (mental modes-guna-s).

However, there is truly no sinner but only ignorance of one's pure nature, by the Veil and there is no eternal damnation too. Moksha-Salvation is the very nature of the souls.

Now, unfortunately, the Varna is translated as Caste and is conflated with Casteism, which is only a form of racism, which develops due to ignorance and hatred of anything perceived as the other. "I am this and there is the world outside of me and all beings of this world are opposed to me." This ignorance is the root of both racism and Casteism.

Those who understand, the Varna theory, however, has no notion of the 'Other opposed to me', since the root "He is before All and in Him All subsist" is understood as the Truth. All is manifestation and form of Brahman's Mind only. Those who understand Varna theory just wish to finish the pending jobs in service mode and get done with it all.
.......

I do not know whether you will absorb even a bit of this or not. This is written as a record for whoever may wish to read.

 

[atanu]

Here, I think we just have a terminology misunderstanding. I think of 'Soul' as a the reincarnating body that exists for many lifetimes. 'Spirit' is the term I use for the eternal spark (Brahman) that animates all bodies and souls.

Yeah, George.

Soul is Jiva Atman. Spirit is just Atman. All souls (jiva atmans) are however in reality Atman only. And Atman is Brahman.

I have tried to express the understanding in response to Pegg in the previous post.

Thanks George. I am indebted to you.

 

[Riverwolf]

I'm going to bring something up, and I don't know if it has, and don't really feel like reading 10 pages to check.

The concept of a Caste distinction is common not only in cultures throughout the world, but it's pretty universal among Indo-European cultures (yes, I know there's some controversy over whether or not the Vedic Religion and Vedic Sanskrit are Indo-European, but for the sake of my point, assume they are connected somehow). Among the Germanic Tribes, who were also Indo-European by the time the Romans wrote about them, there was a social order not unlike that of Varnashrama Dharma (which would become the modern Indian Caste System):

Thrall (slave) - Corresponds roughly with Sudra
Carl (freeman) - Corresponds roughly with Vaishya
Jarl (nobleman/King) - Corresponds roughly with Kshatria

I say roughly, because in whatever way the Vedic Civilization and Germanic Tribes were related, there are several thousand years separating both, allowing for plenty of divergent evolution. (Plus, the Germanic Tribes, unlike the Vedic Culture, weren't writing anything down).

There is kind of an equivalent to the modern Indian dalit, or untouchables, in the form of Outlaws. Now, this isn't being an Outlaw in the Robin Hood sense of woodland freedom. Being an Outlaw, whether temporarily or permanently, meant that you were ostracized from your village (a village that would have had technological sophistication on a similar level to that of the Merry Men's Sherwood camp), and anyone could kill you without fear of any repercussion. It's literally being Out of the Law: you may not have any obligation to follow the law, but neither are you under any of its protections. It would have been a terrible thing to be branded Outlaw, and to be branded one permanently might have been the worst thing.

Both Thralls and Outlaws were sometimes subject of human sacrificial rituals. A Thrall can serve the Gods like he served his human masters, and an Outlaw can bring some honor and good to the land in death where before he had none.

I probably don't need to say this, but just in case it's not clear, I DON'T hold to this conception of social stratification, either. I believe strongly in due process of law so that even the most heinous of criminals still have some legal protection(not for their sake, but for the sake of the falsely accused), and I believe strongly that all human beings have inherent worth and dignity beyond being simple tools: by default, everyone is free. And I've said it before, but I'll say it again here: I strongly, strongly believe that any form of ritual human sacrifice should stay in the past where it belongs.

However, there are some other big differences in this system as well that aren't as grim. A Sudra is a worker, and is equivalent to the modern conception of the Working Class. They are not slaves. Thralls are very much slaves: they are property, like horses and cattle. BUT, unlike in the modern Caste system, a thrall can potentially work their way to becoming a Freeman, so there is room for movement in the social order. There is one aspect of this system that I do believe in: when a Thrall becomes a Freeman, he is presented with the Tool and Symbol of the Freeman: a Sword. All Freemen carry swords, both as a right and duty. This is another point of difference from Varnashrama Dharma: while Carl and Vaishya are rough correspondents, that's only in terms of the stratification, not in terms of the roles they played. All Freemen, or rather, all Freefolk, carry Swords as Warriors. Indeed, the very word "Folk" has an etymological denotation, now lost from the modern word, of not just "people", but "host of warriors". To be a person was to be a warrior. The US Right to Bear Arms is a modern descendent of this conception.

So, what's my point in all this? The bulk of an ancient system may be incompatible with the modern world, but that doesn't mean all aspects of it should be discarded altogether. There's nothing wrong with farming the bits that are compatible with the times, and just discarding the rest. My use of "farming" is not an accident: a farmer does not discard the entire field just because even the bulk of it may have gone bad.

 

[Pegg]

I will try, Pegg. Allow me some freedom.

The best that I like of Bible is: He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

I take that as Absolute Truth. But, then how come we have rapists, plunderers, murderers etc. and also sages? If He is before All and if All are held in Him, how there are so called great sinners?

You may have your answer to that.

But, Hinduism begins by holding that all souls (Jiva- living beings) are pure and are essentially Atman (Spirit). The evident presence of sinners etc. are explained by invoking Varna (Veil) created through a dynamic process involving Guna-s (Mental modes)-Karma (Works)-Samsara (continual coming and going of soul). The Varna (Veil) covers up the pure Spirit nature of living beings who operate under mode of ignorance, driven by particular desires (mental modes-guna-s).

However, there is truly no sinner but only ignorance of one's pure nature, by the Veil and there is no eternal damnation too. Moksha-Salvation is the very nature of the souls.

Now, unfortunately, the Varna is translated as Caste and is conflated with Casteism, which is only a form of racism, which develops due to ignorance and hatred of anything perceived as the other. "I am this and there is the world outside of me and all beings of this world are opposed to me." This ignorance is the root of both racism and Casteism.

Those who understand, the Varna theory, however, has no notion of the 'Other opposed to me', since the root "He is before All and in Him All subsist" is understood as the Truth. All is manifestation and form of Brahman's Mind only. Those who understand Varna theory just wish to finish the pending jobs in service mode and get done with it all.
.......

I do not know whether you will absorb even a bit of this or not. This is written as a record for whoever may wish to read.

thankyou for the explanation.

But taking one verse of the bible and trying to apply it to hinduism doesnt work. I"ll show you why:

atanu;3901425 wrote that Hindusims explains:
there is truly no sinner but only ignorance of one's pure nature, by the Veil and there is no eternal damnation too. Moksha-Salvation is the very nature of the souls.

This is what the bible says:

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Ezekiel 18:4 Look! All the souls—to me they belong. As the soul of the father so also the soul of the son—to me they belong. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

Matt 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left: ‘Go away from me, you who have been cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the Devil and his angels. ...46 These will depart into everlasting cutting-off, but the righteous ones into everlasting life.”


Our Creator will not forever tolerate the sinful acts of mankind. They will be brought to justice and Gods justice for the sinners is 'eternal death'
Any soul who sins will be put to death.

 

[Chakra]

It is important to know that it was very difficult to change your class. Most Sudras did not become Brahmin etc. Each class has its qualifications and requirements, and usually the people born in Brahmin families would have those Brahminical qualities and the people born in Sudra families would not have those Brahminical qualities. This is where karma comes into play. Of course, if a Sudra have qualities like that of a Brahmin, then he could prove himself as one to the other Brahmins and then maybe become a Brahmin. The only example I can think of is Valmiki Maharishi. Other than him, most Sudras remained sudras. It was not like you could simply choose your profession and then become a Brahmin or Kshyatrya etc. Sudras were not allowed to study the Vedas or chant Vedic hymns simply because most of them did not have the qualifications.

Regards

 

[LuisDantas]

To which extent it is clear that having the qualities expected of a caste is not the same as or a direct consequence of being born into that class?

We should not neglect to consider how much of what we "are" or become is in fact enabled by social expectations and taught outright by those people we interact with.

 

[Madhuri]

i agree with the concept, but if thats the case, why does hinduism even make room for such a caste system if it is contrary to being a spiritually conscious person?

Shouldn't hinduism promote things that facilitate that spiritual consciousness rather then impede it?

Hinduism -does- promote things that facilitate the development of spiritual consciousness. The scriptures are all about stripping away the illusion of materialism.

But 'caste' is so ingrained in the culture that it will take time to change (but it is changing more and more with each generation). It's important to remember that 'caste' is a man-made system of social stratification. It was spread by those with influence so that they could rise higher in rank. It is just like any other society that has social stratification.

England is a perfect example of class distinction. Even now that class distinction is strong but in the past it was a lot stronger. England has for a long time been strongly Christian. But would we make the mistake of linking their social system with Christianity? I don't think so. So why are people always classifying the caste system with Hindu religion? In time, when culture changes in India, the caste system will no longer have that religious association (I hope).

The point is that 'caste' is not scipturally mandated although I can admit that there are more recent religious documents that support caste but as someone who doesn't take any scholar to be a legitimate source of spiritual knowledge, I don't take those particular 'scripture' to be worth anything of value. Our ancient scriptures speak only of Varna, which is not to tell us that one person is better than the other. Varna is a system God created so that a community can survive. He created people with different skills/strengths. Creating that diversity allows us to manage different tasks. If everyone was only intellectual but nobody could build a house or hunt for food, we would not function well and possibly not survive.

But nowhere does it say that the hunter is better than the merchant or that the intellect is better than the labourer. It is people who have, over time, created this idea of 'high' and 'low' rank.

I hope that makes sense.

 

[Madhuri]

To which extent it is clear that having the qualities expected of a caste is not the same as or a direct consequence of being born into that class?

We should not neglect to consider how much of what we "are" or become is in fact enabled by social expectations and taught outright by those people we interact with.

Absolutely! :yes: