Do you believe in Caste-System ?

[Vinayaka]

I do not know whether you will absorb even a bit of this or not. This is written as a record for whoever may wish to read.

Yes that is a valid hope, however unrealistic. I no longer have high expectations for Abrahamics to understand dharmic POV. It's about as unlikely as me understanding the Abrahamic POV. It just ain't gonna happen, because the opposite world view is completely foreign to the 'other side'.

 

[Chakra]

I think you misunderstood my question to Atanu. I know caste is determined by birth. My question was at a level above the physical, do some Hindus believe your birth into a caste was predetermined by rational determination by entities, or your own soul, prior to the incarnation. In other words, are you born into a caste that is best for your soul level needs.

Yes, you are right. Varna is birth-based, or it was in the ancient days. Of course, as you correctly said, you would probably be born to a sudra family if you are more like a sudra. If you were more like a Brahmin, you'd be born in a Brahmin family.

 

[Vinayaka]

It is important to know that it was very difficult to change your class.

I would still like to know where you (and others) are getting this information from. Since I know several people who have been able to move upwards in economic class, if not caste, I find it 'suspect'. It seems that there is no current studies, and I don't thin what the indologists or Christian critics say about us is particularly reliable. Do you have any studies that show this rigidity you allude to?

I did find studies that showed a greater economic disparity in America since segregation, and in post-apartheid South Africa, but I've yet to find any such recent study for India.

Don't forget that India current leader was born into a backward (low) caste. Obviously, he's an example of someone who rose above this 'stuff'.

 

[Chakra]

I would still like to know where you (and others) are getting this information from. Since I know several people who have been able to move upwards in economic class, if not caste, I find it 'suspect'. It seems that there is no current studies, and I don't thin what the indologists or Christian critics say about us is particularly reliable. Do you have any studies that show this rigidity you allude to?

I did find studies that showed a greater economic disparity in America since segregation, and in post-apartheid South Africa, but I've yet to find any such recent study for India.

I never said that this relates to modern times. Of course it is possible to move upwards economically in today's world, no denying that. But in the ancient times (before Kali-Yuga), that is how things would work. Sorry for the confusion.

 

[Vinayaka]

I never said that this relates to modern times. Of course it is possible to move upwards economically in today's world, no denying that. But in the ancient times (before Kali-Yuga), that is how things would work. Sorry for the confusion.

I'm concerned with the current situation, not how it was. Much of the planet is better now than in the Crusades, etc. days.

from the Wiki article on Caste ... The presence of lowest caste people in highest paying, senior most position jobs in India has increased by ten-fold, from 1.18 percent of all jobs in 1959 to 10.12 percent of all jobs in 1995.[54]

 

[Pegg]

It is important to know that it was very difficult to change your class. Most Sudras did not become Brahmin etc. Each class has its qualifications and requirements, and usually the people born in Brahmin families would have those Brahminical qualities and the people born in Sudra families would not have those Brahminical qualities. This is where karma comes into play. Of course, if a Sudra have qualities like that of a Brahmin, then he could prove himself as one to the other Brahmins and then maybe become a Brahmin. The only example I can think of is Valmiki Maharishi. Other than him, most Sudras remained sudras. It was not like you could simply choose your profession and then become a Brahmin or Kshyatrya etc. Sudras were not allowed to study the Vedas or chant Vedic hymns simply because most of them did not have the qualifications.

Regards

how many times does it happen that a lower caste moves up into the higher castes? And how does that move take place? How is it recognised and what happens to the children who may already be born of that person who moves up...do they remain in the lower caste while their parent moves to the higher caste?

How many examples would you know of?

 

[Chakra]

I'm concerned with the current situation, not how it was. Much of the planet is better now than in the Crusades, etc. days.

from the Wiki article on Caste ... The presence of lowest caste people in highest paying, senior most position jobs in India has increased by ten-fold, from 1.18 percent of all jobs in 1959 to 10.12 percent of all jobs in 1995.[54]

My comment was regarding the previous Yugas, such as Satya and Treta. Not during the times of the Crusades.

It is good that low caste people are getting more and more jobs and money. Hopefully it will continue this way.

 

[Vinayaka]

My comment was regarding the previous Yugas, such as Satya and Treta.

Then my question remains. Just where are you getting that information from? There are books that analyse caste in those Yugas?

 

[Pegg]

Hinduism -does- promote things that facilitate the development of spiritual consciousness. The scriptures are all about stripping away the illusion of materialism.

But 'caste' is so ingrained in the culture that it will take time to change (but it is changing more and more with each generation). It's important to remember that 'caste' is a man-made system of social stratification. It was spread by those with influence so that they could rise higher in rank. It is just like any other society that has social stratification.

do you know how it got written in to the religion?

England is a perfect example of class distinction. Even now that class distinction is strong but in the past it was a lot stronger. England has for a long time been strongly Christian. But would we make the mistake of linking their social system with Christianity? I don't think so. So why are people always classifying the caste system with Hindu religion? In time, when culture changes in India, the caste system will no longer have that religious association (I hope).

in western cultures, 'class' is about money and occupation, not about birth. And the big difference is that a person born into a poor family can become very wealthy and completely change their status in society.

But if you are born in the hindu system where you are born to a lower caste family, you are a lower caste regardless of your abilities or your unique qualities and talents as a human being. I find that very disturbing.

The point is that 'caste' is not scipturally mandated although I can admit that there are more recent religious documents that support caste but as someone who doesn't take any scholar to be a legitimate source of spiritual knowledge, I don't take those particular 'scripture' to be worth anything of value. Our ancient scriptures speak only of Varna, which is not to tell us that one person is better than the other. Varna is a system God created so that a community can survive. He created people with different skills/strengths. Creating that diversity allows us to manage different tasks. If everyone was only intellectual but nobody could build a house or hunt for food, we would not function well and possibly not survive.

But nowhere does it say that the hunter is better than the merchant or that the intellect is better than the labourer. It is people who have, over time, created this idea of 'high' and 'low' rank.

I hope that makes sense.

why is it that the indian the word for “caste,” varna, means “color.”

If thats what varna means, then it would indicate that originally the idea of varna had more to do with the colour of ones skin then the skills or intellect of the people.

What do you make of it from a historical perspective??

 

[Vinayaka]

Another thing that should be pointed out is that there is little relationship between high caste, and high economic class. Many Brahmins have had to leave their traditional occupation (priests) just to earn a livelihood. Many priest Brahmins are very poor.

All children in India today, regardless of class, are encouraged to attend school. The reasons many don't is an economic harsh reality, not caste.

 

[Chakra]

how many times does it happen that a lower caste moves up into the higher castes? And how does that move take place? How is it recognised and what happens to the children who may already be born of that person who moves up...do they remain in the lower caste while their parent moves to the higher caste?

How many examples would you know of?

Hi Pegg-ji,

First of all, please note that my comment before and my following comment relate to an age that was completely different than ours.

AFAIK, Brahmins have to do some sort of a ceremony with a thread to be recognized as Brahmins. Kshatryas usually have to do some pledge to the king or something.

Now coming to your question to the children and castes.

Your karma and qualities decide your parents and your occupations. Like I said before, most if not all Sudras did not change classes because they simply did not have the qualities of the other classes. Therefore, a parent who didn't change his class before having children (before picking an occupation) would probably not change his occupation after having kids. Of course, if a Sudra who becomes a Brahmin has a child, then that child would be a Brahmin by birth and most probably by qualities too. Hope that clarifies things.

A good example would be Maharisha Vedavyasa. He was the son of a Brahmin and a Vaisya/Sudra (fisherwoman). Because the Brahminical qualities were more present in him, he became a Brahmin.

There are miracles as well. Maharishi Valmiki was actually a dacoit, a mleccha. By association of a pure devotee (Maharishi Narada), he was able to understand the Absolute Truth and thus become one of the greatest sages in Hinduism.

There are tons of examples of people changing classes. But these people were great personalities, not just the average person.

Regards

 

[Poeticus]

I find that very disturbing.

Aw, that's so caring of you. Pegg, you should preach the Word in remote Indian villages. It's the latest craze. It's really easy: just pay a lot of money to those you want converted; tell them to depart from their heathen, pagan-like families and friends; and other stuff. Trust me, it will be very cleansing for you.

 

[Pegg]

Aw, that's so caring of you. Pegg, you should preach the Word in remote Indian villages. It's the latest craze. It's really easy: just pay a lot of money to those you want converted; tell them to depart from their heathen, pagan-like families and friends; and other stuff. Trust me, it will be very cleansing for you.

dont let my personal views of the caste system bother you. People are free to have whatever systems they like. If caste is your choice, by all means go for it.

I still find it disturbing.

 

[Chakra]

Dear Pegg-ji

do you know how it got written in to the religion?

The idea that you can never change your class regardless of your qualities is never found in our scriptures. You can go fishing for a verse that says parentage is absolute, but you won't find one.

Of course, we are also living in the Kali-Yuga. We are all actually mlecchas since we have no qualifications whatsoever.

in western cultures, 'class' is about money and occupation, not about birth. And the big difference is that a person born into a poor family can become very wealthy and completely change their status in society.

Yes, because western cultures are materialistic. Varna is based on spiritualism. No sudra is ever sad that he is not a Brahmin because he knows that he is equal to the Brahmin in every way in terms of spirit.

People were always more interested in God and spirituality than money and status in those days. Everyone did their Dharma correctly and happily because they know that there is more than this life.

But if you are born in the hindu system where you are born to a lower caste family, you are a lower caste regardless of your abilities or your unique qualities and talents as a human being. I find that very disturbing.

I am pretty sure that Madhuri-ji has already refuted this nonsense that you will always be a Sudra if your parents are Sudras. Qualities have a big role in this. Plus, there is no lower or higher caste. Society would not fuction without Sudras.

why is it that the indian the word for “caste,” varna, means “color.”

Color is only one of the meanings for varna.

If thats what varna means, then it would indicate that originally the idea of varna had more to do with the colour of ones skin then the skills or intellect of the people.

No, it had nothing to do with the color. Sanskrit words have more than one meaning. No Sanskrit scholar has ever thought that varna has to do anything with color.

Lord Krishna is dark. Is he a Sudra?


I just wanted to make my comments on your post. I'm sure Madhuri-ji will respond to you in a separate post.

 

[Vinayaka]

I still find it disturbing.

I find it amazing that people can't accept that other people find beliefs foreign to their own 'disturbing' As you know, many people would find your beliefs 'disturbing'.

That's just the nature of faith and differing paradigms.

And as you said, people are free to entertain whatever they wish, and I think every single Hindu here openly declared they personally don't follow the caste system.

I think you've added to the discussion.

 

[Pegg]

Dear Pegg-ji
The idea that you can never change your class regardless of your qualities is never found in our scriptures. You can go fishing for a verse that says parentage is absolute, but you won't find one.

Of course, we are also living in the Kali-Yuga. We are all actually mlecchas since we have no qualifications whatsoever.

im interested in how that happens. What is the process for a person who was a lower caste, perhaps an untouchable, to now be accepted as a brahmin for example?

How does the change take place and how is it recognised by the higher castes?

Yes, because western cultures are materialistic. Varna is based on spiritualism. No sudra is ever sad that he is not a Brahmin because he knows that he is equal to the Brahmin in every way in terms of spirit.

but do these lower castes have the same rights in indian society? Because from what i've seen in some recent news reports about rape cases in india, its been reported that the police do not take the lower castes complaints seriously.

I am pretty sure that Madhuri-ji has already refuted this nonsense that you will always be a Sudra if your parents are Sudras. Qualities have a big role in this. Plus, there is no lower or higher caste. Society would not fuction without Sudras.

by 'Sudra' do you mean lower caste? Sorry i dont really know all the terminology you are using.

But if a lower caste person decided they did not want to clean the gutters, if that was their job, and they wanted to pursue a more spiritual path, how would they do that?

Color is only one of the meanings for varna.

No, it had nothing to do with the color. Sanskrit words have more than one meaning. No Sanskrit scholar has ever thought that varna has to do anything with color.

Lord Krishna is dark. Is he a Sudra?

I dont know. What are the meanings of 'varna'

 

[Madhuri]

do you know how it got written in to the religion?

Not a detailed understanding, just the general idea that the Brahmins had influence to make those changes to the culture and establish their own rules.

in western cultures, 'class' is about money and occupation, not about birth. And the big difference is that a person born into a poor family can become very wealthy and completely change their status in society.

But if you are born in the hindu system where you are born to a lower caste family, you are a lower caste regardless of your abilities or your unique qualities and talents as a human being. I find that very disturbing.

Except that nether of these statements are true. For starters, if we go back even just 100 years, it was a huge taboo for any person in England to marry outside of their social class. People were often disinherited by their families for doing such a thing. Things are different now of course but this difference is so incredibly recent.

The 'Hindu' system, which is actually just the 'Indian' system, not a religious system, is also time and culture bound. There are plenty of people born into a particular caste who live a life completely differently. Basically all of my Indian Hindu friends follow careers that contradict their caste. Caste doesn't mean as much now as it did previously and will continue to become less important.

why is it that the indian the word for “caste,” varna, means “color.”

If thats what varna means, then it would indicate that originally the idea of varna had more to do with the colour of ones skin then the skills or intellect of the people.

What do you make of it from a historical perspective??

It can mean numerous things, not just colour. In the context of the Vedas it means class or order. If it were about colour, it would actually say so.

 

[Vinayaka]

How does the change take place and how is it recognised by the higher castes?

A person so suited would study scripture and learn some Sanskrit. Then they'd go to a Gurukula (Brahmin priest training school) and explain their situation. (More likely to be a father explaining it on behalf of his son who has taken an interest in such things and seems to be really good at it) Just like any other school, they would either be admitted or not, depending on how well the teachers felt they were suited to it. But most likely , if they individual held high promise, they'd be admitted. Most Gurukulas begin for Brahmins remaining in the priesthood at around 6 or 7 years of age. As an adult, it would be harder. Of course, you'd have to really excel and take an interest in it.

 

[Madhuri]

But if a lower caste person decided they did not want to clean the gutters, if that was their job, and they wanted to pursue a more spiritual path, how would they do that?

Do you know many Hindu people? I have 'low caste' friends. Most of them are engineers or work in IT. How did that happen? Their parents sent them to university. That's how, Pegg.

People can do what they want. They can open their own businesses or devote their lives to spirituality. Nobody cares.

 

[Chakra]

Peggji,

im interested in how that happens. What is the process for a person who was a lower caste, perhaps an untouchable, to now be accepted as a brahmin for example?

How does the change take place and how is it recognised by the higher castes?

I am pretty sure I have explained this. For one to be a Brahmin, one has to take the thread ceremony. For one to be a warrior, one must take some sort of ceremony that involves a pledge to the king and nation.

but do these lower castes have the same rights in indian society? Because from what i've seen in some recent news reports about rape cases in india, its been reported that the police do not take the lower castes complaints seriously.

It doesn't seem that they have same rights in INDIAN society. They did in Vedic society.

by 'Sudra' do you mean lower caste?

No.

Sudra is one of the classes. Even ambassadors and servants to the King would be considered Sudras.

But if a lower caste person decided they did not want to clean the gutters, if that was their job, and they wanted to pursue a more spiritual path, how would they do that?

Cleaning the gutters was never a job in Vedic society. A job like this is only found in the really rural parts of India where there is little technology. Ancient Vedic society was more advanced than that.

I dont know. What are the meanings of 'varna'

Refer to Madhuri-ji's post.

Lord Krishna was dark. He was born in a Kshatrya class, grew up in a Vaishya class, and studied under a Brahmin guru.

Regards