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Do you believe in Caste-System ?

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Do you know many Hindu people? I have 'low caste' friends. Most of them are engineers or work in IT. How did that happen? Their parents sent them to university. That's how, Pegg.

People can do what they want. They can open their own businesses or devote their lives to spirituality. Nobody cares.

Yes i do know hindu people here in australia. I've also become acquainted with some who have immigrated here too. But those who are my closest friends are not hindu anymore...they are JW's.

Anyway, in all this discussion are the sacred writings which outline the caste system (the Dharmashastras) no longer relevant today?
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Yes i do know hindu people here in australia. I've also become acquainted with some who have immigrated here too. But those who are my closest friends are not hindu anymore...they are JW's.

Anyway, in all this discussion are the sacred writings which outline the caste system (the Dharmashastras) no longer relevant today?

Well, if you mean the Manu Smriti, then yes.

The Manu Smriti is an interesting case.

Most people in the past had accepted it as authentic, but I feel that it may have been interpolated after foreign conquests by other cultures. Proof? Too many verses in the Smriti contradict each other, which means that it has been interpolated. An interpolated text is not going to do any good IMHO.

Regards
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Peggji,



I am pretty sure I have explained this. For one to be a Brahmin, one has to take the thread ceremony. For one to be a warrior, one must take some sort of ceremony that involves a pledge to the king and nation.

who are the warriors in todays india? what occupation do they have??

It doesn't seem that they have same rights in INDIAN society. They did in Vedic society.

whats the difference between vedic society and indian society?
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Yes i do know hindu people here in australia. I've also become acquainted with some who have immigrated here too. But those who are my closest friends are not hindu anymore...they are JW's.

Anyway, in all this discussion are the sacred writings which outline the caste system (the Dharmashastras) no longer relevant today?

It was relevant to it's time as a cultural source but I do not consider it to now or ever have been a legitimate religious source. It is not Shruti, meaning it is not of divine origin.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Well, if you mean the Manu Smriti, then yes.

The Manu Smriti is an interesting case.

Most people in the past had accepted it as authentic, but I feel that it may have been interpolated after foreign conquests by other cultures. Proof? Too many verses in the Smriti contradict each other, which means that it has been interpolated. An interpolated text is not going to do any good IMHO.

Regards

actually i was looking at this website and it named the writings as the Dharashastras
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
who are the warriors in todays india? what occupation do they have??

Soldiers I guess. Please note that India does not follow Varna system. It is secular, after all.


whats the difference between vedic society and indian society?

Indian society is the society that has been formed after 1000 AD. Many changes begin to happen here culturally and religiously.

Vedic society is the society that is based solely on Vedic texts, not foreign cultures.

Regards
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
It was relevant to it's time as a cultural source but I do not consider it to now or ever have been a legitimate religious source. It is not Shruti, meaning it is not of divine origin.

im glad you said that because i was thinking the same thing.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Soldiers I guess. Please note that India does not follow Varna system. It is secular, after all.




Indian society is the society that has been formed after 1000 AD. Many changes begin to happen here culturally and religiously.

Vedic society is the society that is based solely on Vedic texts, not foreign cultures.

Regards

which society predominantly exists today?
 

Chakra

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
which society predominantly exists today?

Culturally, the one that was made after the conquest of foreign cultures exists today even in the modern parts of India. :(
Of course, India is a secular state, and so all caste related nonsense is illegal.

Don't worry about it too much. You can rest assured that no Hindu believes in the caste system as it is today. Soon all caste systems will be eradicated from India.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Culturally, the one that was made after the conquest of foreign cultures exists today even in the modern parts of India. :(
Of course, India is a secular state, and so all caste related nonsense is illegal.

Don't worry about it too much. You can rest assured that no Hindu believes in the caste system as it is today. Soon all caste systems will be eradicated from India.

lets hope that time comes sooner then later :)
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
It was relevant to it's time as a cultural source but I do not consider it to now or ever have been a legitimate religious source. It is not Shruti, meaning it is not of divine origin.

Madhuri

I am afraid that I differ.Varna, is a category system created by God. It is Shruti and it is proclaimed by Shri Krishna Himself.

RV 10.90
11. When they divided Purusa how many portions did they make?
What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?
12. The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced

Gita 4.13

The four-fold caste system has been created by Me according to the differentiation of qualities and actions. Though I am the author, know Me as non-doer and eternal.
 
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Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
Madhuri

I am afraid that I differ.

Varna, OTOH, is a category system created by God. It is Shruti and it is proclaimed by Shri Krishna Himself.
RV 10.90
11. When they divided Purusa how many portions did they make?
What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?
12. The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced

Gita 4.13
The four-fold caste system has been created by Me according to the differentiation of qualities and actions. Though I am the author, know Me as non-doer and eternal.

Hi Atanu,
I wasn't talking about Varna, I was talking about the smriti texts that endorse the modern caste system.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
But taking one verse of the bible and trying to apply it to hinduism doesnt work. I"ll show you why:

My intention was never that. Just forget it.

This is what the bible says:

Romans 3:23  For all have sinned ......,

I know this. I have two questions for you.
1. Do you think that your group and you are free of sin or not?
2. How do you reconcile above with :
"He is before All and All subsist in Him"?
Is the God not the greatest sinner? Or is your understanding not complete?
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
Hi Atanu,
I wasn't talking about Varna, I was talking about the smriti texts that endorse the modern caste system.

But some folks are ready with claws open to rip the foundation of Hinduism apart. :)

I have made a clarificatory post below.
 

atanu

Member
Premium Member
It is my view that Hindus should not reform Hinduism under pressure from materialistic thinking, so as to change its basic nature. Hindus should not denigrate Veda or Gita, since these are the foundations. It is also my view that Hindus should distinguish between Varna (spiritual Caste designations as created by God as per distribution of guna and karma) and Jati (Socio-physical groups implemented by humans in India). There is some correspondence between the two but the correspondence is not 100%. Especially, the conflicts arise with respect to group affiliations and these are related to Jati.

Varna relates to spiritual categories and is mostly translated as Caste. Jati relates more to Casteism.

Mis-understanding arises because most of us analyse scriptures from the point of view of individuals. Vedic dharma is not about that. Vedic dharma is first about Brahman, which is indivisible Eko -- One without a Second. The apparent multiplicities of numerous Jiva-s with their own distinct qualities is only phenomenally true. The absolute truth is indivisible eko brahman.

Now, in respect of the manifestation of the Brahman called Purusha, what can the Varna mean? In a single body, has anyone seen legs fighting arms and arms fighting eyes for supremacy? Has anyone seen fight of Castes in a single body?

In a body, a talk of assigning supremacy and sovereign independent power to a functional organ is not meaningful. Similarly, in non-dual indivisible Brahman, imagining the four Castes as independent separate entities/groups with autonomous power is foolish.

Varna, is a category system created by God

RV 10.90
11. When they divided Purusa how many portions did they make?
What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?
12. The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced

Gita 4.13
The four-fold caste system has been created by Me according to the differentiation of qualities and actions. Though I am the author, know Me as non-doer and eternal.

At the same time God Himself instructs us as below:

Gita 5.18
The humble sages, by virtue of true knowledge, see with equal vision a learned and gentle brāhmaṇa, a cow, an elephant, a dog and a dog-eater [outcaste].


Gita 13.29
Because he who sees the same Lord equally dwelling everywhere does not destroy the Self by the self; he goes to the highest goal.

A real sage is one who can See the Sameness of Ishwara (God) underlying very diverse names-forms of the phenomenal world. But, IMO, there is no reason why true Hindus should abandon a verse enshrined in Purusha Sukta of Rig Veda (and also in Gita).
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
I know this. I have two questions for you.
1. Do you think that your group and you are free of sin or not?

not at all. Every one of us sins even when we try hard not to.

We sin by our very thoughts, by our anger, by our jealousy, by our selfish desires. None of us are immune to the consequences of sin. Only God can completely remove sin from us and he has not done that yet.

2. How do you reconcile above with :
"He is before All and All subsist in Him"?
Is the God not the greatest sinner? Or is your understanding not complete?

Do you have a reference for that snipet of scripture you have used there??

I think it may possibly be from Ephesians 1:20 ".... he raised him up from the dead and seated him at his right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above every government and authority and power and lordship and every name that is named, not only in this system of things but also in that to come. 22 He also subjected all things under his feet and made him head over all things with regard to the congregation, 23 which is his body, the fullness of him who fills up all things in all.

Is the scripture you were quoting from?
 

Madhuri

RF Goddess
Staff member
Premium Member
But some folks are ready with claws open to rip the foundation of Hinduism apart. :)

I have made a clarificatory post below.

Yes, I know. It's important to me to make the distinction between Varna and Jati and to utterly reject Jati. I do not consider it 'Hindu' in the religious sense and believe it should be rejected asap.
 
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