Do you believe in Caste-System ?

[atanu]

This is the origin of spiritual differentiantion based on Guna (mental quality) and Karma (Work).

RV 10.90
11. When they divided Purusa how many portions did they make?
What do they call his mouth, his arms? What do they call his thighs and feet?
12. The Brahman was his mouth, of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya, from his feet the Sudra was produced.

In above scheme, the parts are of the whole and there is no cause of conflict except through ignorance of the non dual trurh. So then:

Gita 13.29
Because he who sees the same Lord equally dwelling everywhere does not destroy the Self by the self; he goes to the highest goal.

 

[Pegg]

It is also my view that Hindus should distinguish between Varna (spiritual Caste designations as created by God as per distribution of guna and karma)

atanu, we were discussing this topic earlier and it was suggested that a lower caste can become a higher caste.

If God designates a person to be of a particular caste, how is it possible that they can change their caste? What is your gods view on such changes if he had already designated the persons position?

 

[Madhuri]

atanu, we were discussing this topic earlier and it was suggested that a lower caste can become a higher caste.

If God designates a person to be of a particular caste, how is it possible that they can change their caste? What is your gods view on such changes if he had already designated the persons position?

Pegg, I'd like to give an answer to this as well.
One thing that makes Hinduism really different to Abrahamic faiths is that we see God manifest -as- all beings. We're not separate from Him. So God wouldn't approve or disapprove of what we do because all actions are His actions. He doesn't sit around judging us. He is us.

That is why the quote says that his 'body' becomes the varnas. He becomes us. He becomes nature, he becomes thoughts, he becomes everything. And yet he remains the Viewer, the Observer beyond it all at the same time.

Yet even ignoring this, God does not designate people to a particular caste. We are born into a body with a particular nature and karma. If we go from one caste to another it is because it is our nature and our karma to do so. We would not be going against any ordination. If anything, restricting oneself from living their life to their full potential is closer to going against what we should be striving for.

 

[atanu]

atanu, we were discussing this topic earlier and it was suggested that a lower caste can become a higher caste.

If God designates a person to be of a particular caste, how is it possible that they can change their caste? What is your gods view on such changes if he had already designated the persons position?

God has created spiritual functional categories, characterised by nature of mental tendencies and work. Scripture does not indicate that souls are fixed within categories, since even in a single life time the nature of mind-work changes.

There are numerous examples in scripture where caste designations of individuals are determined by acts and thoughts and not merely based on birth.

However, Shri Krishna does say in Gita that he ensures birth of pious individuals under favourable enviroment. He also says that He hurls hard hearted demonic people into hellish conditions. So, our mental tendencies and work both together, do influence our re-birth into favourable or unfavouarable situations.

However, as you do not believe in reincarnation, the the last para may be meaningless for you.

 

[Pegg]

Pegg, I'd like to give an answer to this as well.
One thing that makes Hinduism really different to Abrahamic faiths is that we see God manifest -as- all beings. We're not separate from Him. So God wouldn't approve or disapprove of what we do because all actions are His actions. He doesn't sit around judging us. He is us.

That is why the quote says that his 'body' becomes the varnas. He becomes us. He becomes nature, he becomes thoughts, he becomes everything. And yet he remains the Viewer, the Observer beyond it all at the same time.

Yet even ignoring this, God does not designate people to a particular caste. We are born into a body with a particular nature and karma. If we go from one caste to another it is because it is our nature and our karma to do so. We would not be going against any ordination. If anything, restricting oneself from living their life to their full potential is closer to going against what we should be striving for.

I think i understand what you are saying.

But I still find it confusing. I guess i come from the belief that God is God and we are his creations so its quite a huge leap to consider that we are all god.

The first thought that comes to my mind is if thats true, then how could there possibly be wickedness in this world? God is not wicked is he?

 

[Pegg]

God has created spiritual functional categories, characterised by nature of mental tendencies and work. Scripture does not indicate that souls are fixed within categories, since even in a single life time the nature of mind-work changes.

There are numerous examples in scripture where caste designations of individuals are determined by acts and thoughts and not merely based on birth.

However, Shri Krishna does say in Gita that he ensures birth of pious individuals under favourable enviroment. He also says that He hurls hard hearted demonic people into hellish conditions. So, our mental tendencies and work both together, do influence our re-birth into favourable or unfavouarable situations.

However, as you do not believe in reincarnation, the the last para may be meaningless for you.

yes i was kind of wondering how someone who is yet born could have a caste selected for them based on their actions if they have not yet been born... then i remembered reincarnation.

Are animals also part of the reincarnation process? Could a person have been an animal in a past life or an animal a person?

 

[atanu]

But I still find it confusing. I guess i come from the belief that God is God and we are his creations ....

That is correct, even by Hinduism.

The understanding is that what is truly true in us, in God's creations, is nothing but God.

 

[Madhuri]

I think i understand what you are saying.

But I still find it confusing. I guess i come from the belief that God is God and we are his creations so its quite a huge leap to consider that we are all god.

The first thought that comes to my mind is if thats true, then how could there possibly be wickedness in this world? God is not wicked is he?

I know, the East and West conceptions of reality are vastly different and it can take a while to get one's head around it. Because I grew up with both I can imagine life from both perspectives, which is kind of cool .

God isn't wicked but we don't believe in 'evil' or 'sin', at least not in the sense that you understand those concepts. There is no opposition to God, there is no dark force. When you get into the complexities of Vedic philosophy you start to see human action, pain and suffering in a very different light. Actions are no longer seen as 'evil' or 'sinful' but rather based in ignorance. All 'bad' actions are selfish and selfishness is the result of seeing duality. When one realises his connection to all things selfish action is no longer possible. Another concept we have is that suffering and 'sinful' action are useful as they teach us lessons and help us grow to higher levels of spiritual development.

Our belief is that life starts in ignorance, we as 'blank slates' and it is a continuous progression of learning until we reach Enlightenment. Both suffering and joy are necessary for that progression but suffering is only possible through sinful actions (ie/ selfish action based in ignorance). Eventually everyone attains a state of enlightenment where 'wickedness' cannot exist and is seen to be a mere illusion (action is just action. 'Good' and 'bad' are subjective concepts. This is yet another topic that can be elaborated on but I don't want to make the post too long).

I hope that makes sense in at least a hypothetical way.

 

[Madhuri]

Are animals also part of the reincarnation process? Could a person have been an animal in a past life or an animal a person?

Absolutely. We are all souls, all part and parcel of God, all on the same journey of self discovery. A non-human animal is a body with a lower consciousness, meaning they have further to go on the journey.

 

[Chakra]

I think i understand what you are saying.

But I still find it confusing. I guess i come from the belief that God is God and we are his creations so its quite a huge leap to consider that we are all god.

The first thought that comes to my mind is if thats true, then how could there possibly be wickedness in this world? God is not wicked is he?

"Everything is God"

"God is everything"

You need to understand the difference between the previous 2 sentences. Hinduism does not say that everything is God and therefore there is no supreme power (unless you are talking Advaita).

Atanu-ji and Madhuri-ji have summed it nicely for you. But please, reflect on the difference in meaning between those phrases.

Regards

 

[Pegg]

I know, the East and West conceptions of reality are vastly different and it can take a while to get one's head around it. Because I grew up with both I can imagine life from both perspectives, which is kind of cool .

God isn't wicked but we don't believe in 'evil' or 'sin', at least not in the sense that you understand those concepts. There is no opposition to God, there is no dark force. When you get into the complexities of Vedic philosophy you start to see human action, pain and suffering in a very different light. Actions are no longer seen as 'evil' or 'sinful' but rather based in ignorance. All 'bad' actions are selfish and selfishness is the result of seeing duality. When one realises his connection to all things selfish action is no longer possible. Another concept we have is that suffering and 'sinful' action are useful as they teach us lessons and help us grow to higher levels of spiritual development.

Our belief is that life starts in ignorance, we as 'blank slates' and it is a continuous progression of learning until we reach Enlightenment. Both suffering and joy are necessary for that progression but suffering is only possible through sinful actions (ie/ selfish action based in ignorance). Eventually everyone attains a state of enlightenment where 'wickedness' cannot exist and is seen to be a mere illusion (action is just action. 'Good' and 'bad' are subjective concepts. This is yet another topic that can be elaborated on but I don't want to make the post too long).

I hope that makes sense in at least a hypothetical way.

somewhat yes,

I like the idea of everyone attaining to a state of enlightenment where wickedness cannot exist.

I think our ideas on how we attain to that place are about as far apart as the sunrise is from the sunset

 

[Madhuri]

I think our ideas on how we attain to that place are about as far apart as the sunrise is from the sunset

Haha, yes I know! It's all good though. Of course I hope I'm right cause it's a happier ending for everyone

 

[Pegg]

Absolutely. We are all souls, all part and parcel of God, all on the same journey of self discovery. A non-human animal is a body with a lower consciousness, meaning they have further to go on the journey.

how does such an animal raise its level of consciousness?

I understand that we can reason on our actions and learn from the mistakes we make and the things we do...but how do animals 'reason'? and i mostly find animals to be governed by instincts and they dont tend to try an harm anyone...so what exactly do animals need to learn in order to raise their level of consciousness?

 

[Pegg]

Haha, yes I know! It's all good though. Of course I hope I'm right cause it's a happier ending for everyone

how long do you think it will take before we reach such an existence?

 

[Chakra]

how does such an animal raise its level of consciousness?

I understand that we can reason on our actions learn from the things we do...but how do animals 'reason'? and i mostly find animals to be governed by instincts and they dont tend to try an harm anyone...so what exactly do animals need to learn in order to raise their level of consciousness?

I have to use a Vaishnavite answer for this. May seem biased.

Actually, an animal cannot raise its level of consciousness without the grace of Bhagavan. Can you imagine what kind of sadhana an animal could do?

Maybe, an ant enters the a temple and the Lord then says, "This ant has entered my temple."

The Lord will then bestow tons of punya on that creature, which will ensure the ant will get a human birth.

 

[Pegg]

"Everything is God"

"God is everything"

You need to understand the difference between the previous 2 sentences. Hinduism does not say that everything is God and therefore there is no supreme power (unless you are talking Advaita).

Atanu-ji and Madhuri-ji have summed it nicely for you. But please, reflect on the difference in meaning between those phrases.

Regards

I can't see any difference in those sentences.
God = everything
Everything = God

arn't they one and the same meaning?

 

[Pegg]

I have to use a Vaishnavite answer for this. May seem biased.

Actually, an animal cannot raise its level of consciousness without the grace of Bhagavan. Can you imagine what kind of sadhana an animal could do?

Maybe, an ant enters the a temple and the Lord then says, "This ant has entered my temple."

The Lord will then bestow tons of punya on that creature, which will ensure the ant will get a human birth.

What about a Koala who lives in a tree and doesnt' go into temples. How does he raise his level of consciousness?

sorry for all my questioning btw... im not trying to be a pain in the bum, just curious.

 

[Vinayaka]

These days it's truly amazing when someone finds their varna. Have you heard the phrases, 'He was born to cook, born to be a teacher, she was born to dance, to be a mother,' etc. When a person finds what they love, this is a reflection of the way varna was intended. You can hear it in the emotion of the language.

We had varna by birth in the west not so long ago when people very often followed in their parents footsteps by learning their trade from their parents. Farmers became farmers, bricklayers became bricklayers. Many castes still there today are no different than guilds.

 

[Madhuri]

how long do you think it will take before we reach such an existence?

It would be a different length of time depending on the individual but it would take many, many life times.

 

[Madhuri]

I can't see any difference in those sentences.
God = everything
Everything = God

arn't they one and the same meaning?

They are different.

God= everything means God is everything at once.

Everything= God means every single individual thing is equal to God which equal everything. That would mean a blade of grass is the equivalent of God. But God is the sum of all things and even beyond that.

To put it another way, to say that I am God would mean to say that I am everything, the source of all sources, the beginning and the end, controller, operator, destroyer of all worlds. But in fact I am not. I am only a part of everything.