Do you believe in life after Death?

[Trailblazer]

What is a soul and how can you demonstrate that it exists absent a brain, as well as "use" brains to manifest emotions?

The soul is a mystery so it cannot be demonstrated. That all humans have a soul is a religious belief, not a scientific fact.

“Thou hast asked Me concerning the nature of the soul. Know, verily, that the soul is a sign of God, a heavenly gem whose reality the most learned of men hath failed to grasp, and whose mystery no mind, however acute, can ever hope to unravel. It is the first among all created things to declare the excellence of its Creator, the first to recognize His glory, to cleave to His truth, and to bow down in adoration before Him. If it be faithful to God, it will reflect His light, and will, eventually, return unto Him. If it fail, however, in its allegiance to its Creator, it will become a victim to self and passion, and will, in the end, sink in their depths...”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 158-159

In the Baha'i Writings we are told the function of the soul, but not its nature.

The only thing I can say is that near death experiences have demonstrated that people can have consciousness when their brain is no longer functioning. I know that is not proof to atheists, but it is evidence.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

With whom am discussing all this ? A mere brain ?

With me. I am my whole body. My brain is what does the thinking and the communicating.

Is this just a brain fighting a debate with another brain ?
If so, what's the connection ? why two brains fighting with each other ?

No clue what you are on about.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

The original-language terms (Heb., neʹphesh [נֶפֶשׁ]; Gr., psy·kheʹ [ψυχή]) as used in the Scriptures show “soul” to be a person, or animal. a cat is a soul a dog is a soul. every animal that draws breath is a soul.

Can you quote those scriptures?

In the Baha'i Writings I see castaway is correct.

Soul and Sport are talking of the same thing and all life is in reality derived from Spirit.

Abdu'lbaha talks about the 5 kinds of spirit, there is the vegetable, animal, human, spirit of faith and holy spirit.

It may help to study that talk.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The soul is a mystery so it cannot be demonstrated.

Ow. So, it's actually pretty similar to the extra-dimensional unicorns that follow me around everywhere. They too are mysterious and can't be demonstrated.

The only thing I can say is that near death experiences have demonstrated that people can have consciousness when their brain is no longer functioning

Perhaps you should read up on this subject by diving into the literature of neurology and alike.

I know that is not proof to atheists, but it is evidence.

No. It's a misrepresentation of what is really going on.

 

[Trailblazer]

First of all, it's off course absolute nonsense that time is measured by the sun or in any way dependend on the existance of this random star, which is just one among a couple bilion bazigillion trillions of stars in the universe.

This is what I meant when I said that time is measured by the sun:
Solar time is a calculation of the passage of time based on the position of the Sun in the sky. The fundamental unit of solar time is the day. Two types of solar time are apparent solar time (sundial time) and mean solar time (clock time).

Solar time - Wikipedia

Secondly, I see a lot of "I believe"s. Is there anything about this that is more then just mere beliefs?

There is nothing that is more than religious beliefs, but they are not mere, Imo.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What is a soul and how can you demonstrate that it exists absent a brain, as well as "use" brains to manifest emotions?

Study NDE

".... Near-death experiences often occur in association with cardiac arrest. Prior studies found that 10–20 seconds following cardiac arrest, electroencephalogram measurements generally find no significant measureable brain cortical electrical activity. A prolonged, detailed, lucid experience following cardiac arrest should not be possible, yet this is reported in many NDEs. This is especially notable given the prolonged period of amnesia that typically precedes and follows recovery from cardiac arrest..... "

Near-Death Experiences Evidence for Their Reality

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

In the Baha'i Writings I see castaway is correct.

Soul and Sport are talking of the same thing and all life is in reality derived from Spirit.

Abdu'lbaha talks about the 5 kinds of spirit, there is the vegetable, animal, human, spirit of faith and holy spirit.

It may help to study that talk.

Some Answered Questions | Bahá’í Reference Library

Regards Tony

If you use the words soul and spirit interchangeably, then we can say animals have a soul, but they do not have a rational soul.

Where does Abdu'l-Baha get off saying the following about the animal spirit? It is not congruent with science that says, that matter can never be extinguished.

After the separation and dissolution of these composed elements, this spirit will also naturally cease to exist. It is like this lamp before you: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together, light is produced; but when the oil is exhausted, the wick consumed, and the constituent parts separated, the light will also be extinguished and lost.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ow. So, it's actually pretty similar to the extra-dimensional unicorns that follow me around everywhere. They too are mysterious and can't be demonstrated.

Typical atheist retort, but it does not logically follow that just because the soul cannot be demonstrated it does not exist, since demonstrations are not what make anything exist.

It also does not logically follow that just because extra-dimensional unicorns do not exist the soul does not exist.
That is called the fallacy of false equivalence.

Perhaps you should read up on this subject by diving into the literature of neurology and alike.

No. It's a misrepresentation of what is really going on.

It has never been proven what is really going on, so that is another atheist belief, not proven by science. It is what is termed a theory.

 

[McBell]

The soul is a mystery so it cannot be demonstrated. That all humans have a soul is a religious belief, not a scientific fact.

Hells bells, you can not even get a consensus on what a "soul" actually is.

 

[Trailblazer]

Hells bells, you can not even get a consensus on what a "soul" actually is.

The nature of the soul is a mystery but the Baha'i Faith has a consensus on the function of the soul and what happens to the soul after we die.

Christians do not have a consensus because the Bible was not clear on the functions of the soul or what happens to a the soul after we die, and that is why Christians believe different things.

 

[The Anointed]

If you use the words soul and spirit interchangeably, then we can say animals have a soul, but they do not have a rational soul.

Where does Abdu'l-Baha get off saying the following about the animal spirit? It is not congruent with science that says, that matter can never be extinguished.

After the separation and dissolution of these composed elements, this spirit will also naturally cease to exist. It is like this lamp before you: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together, light is produced; but when the oil is exhausted, the wick consumed, and the constituent parts separated, the light will also be extinguished and lost.

Jesus uses the words "body, soul and spirit" interchangeably, in fact the new covenant that Jesus brought in demands that if you want to live an everlasting life, you must love God with all your heart=body, with all your mind=spirit, and with all your being=soul, or life force.

This body that you see---it isn’t really me
It’s but the womb in which I’m being formed
For I am spirit—I am mind
And it’s the only place you’ll find
WHO I AM, until the day I’m finally born.
For I will not be free, until this body that you see
Has returned to the dust from whence it came
It’s then that I’ll be born from this womb in which I’m formed
To continue on in life’s eternal game......The Anointed.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

If you use the words soul and spirit interchangeably, then we can say animals have a soul, but they do not have a rational soul.

Where does Abdu'l-Baha get off saying the following about the animal spirit? It is not congruent with science that says, that matter can never be extinguished.

After the separation and dissolution of these composed elements, this spirit will also naturally cease to exist. It is like this lamp before you: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together, light is produced; but when the oil is exhausted, the wick consumed, and the constituent parts separated, the light will also be extinguished and lost.

You may be asking where Abdul'baha gets the wisdom to know how creation exists?

The answer lays in that Baha'u'llah gifted Abdul'baha as the expounded of His Message from God.

Other than that, it is up to us to read what is said and try to determine what is being said spiritually.

The passage to me, in no way shape or form says Matter is extinguished.

RegardsTony

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A soul is not apart from consciousness... The soul is responsible for consciousness.... Maybe this will help.......

We only need physical bodies in this physical world because the soul works through the body while we are alive in a body, but it is the soul that directs human faculties, including consciousness. As outer circumstances are communicated to the soul by the eyes, ears, and brain, the soul communicates its desires through the brain to the physical body, which thereby expresses itself and leads to experiences and distractions and feelings and all kinds of things.

The soul is the sum total of the personality so it is the person himself; the physical body is pure matter with no real identity. The person, after he dies and leaves his physical body behind remains the same person, and he goes to the spiritual world where he continues the life he conducted in the physical world. The soul takes on some kind of a spiritual form made up of elements that exist in the spiritual world. Nobody can understand what that will be like before they die because the only reference point we have is the physical world and the physical body.

What's specific about the soul that isn't controlled by the brain and interpreted by the mind? (Apart from biology and psychology)

Part of our personality is part of the frontal lobe. People who have brain trauma in that area, their personality and identity can change based on where in the lobe the injury occurred. We can see the process of our emotions from our brain in MRIs and other brain scans. They have a physical cause and excited by many stressers.

It doesn't devalue the interpretation of the soul, but the core of it is our brain, body, and psyche. Is there a distinct part of the soul that differentiates itself from the cause and processes of the brain? (Especially when we take out religion since our body/mind/brain doesn't need these abstract things to survive)

 

[Trailblazer]

You may be asking where Abdul'baha gets the wisdom to know how creation exists?

The answer lays in that Baha'u'llah gifted Abdul'baha as the expounded of His Message from God.

Even it that is true, we can no more know that what Abdu'l-Baha wrote is what He heard from Baha'u'llah than Christians can know that what is in the New Testament is what Jesus said. It is a matter of faith, not fact.

Other than that, it is up to us to read what is said and try to determine what is being said spiritually.

The passage to me, in no way shape or form says Matter is extinguished.

Then what does it say to you?

"this spirit will also naturally cease to exist" says to me that the animal spirit will not continue to exist after the body dies. I am not sorry to say that I do not believe that, and I know a lot of Baha'is who do not believe it either.

"After this is the animal spirit, which also results from the combination of elements that are brought together in a single composition. But this composition is more complete, and when by the decree of the almighty Lord it reaches a fuller degree of combination, the animal spirit, which consists in the power of the senses, comes to exist. This power perceives sensible realities—that which can be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or touched. After the separation and dissolution of these composed elements, this spirit will also naturally cease to exist. It is like this lamp before you: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together, light is produced; but when the oil is exhausted, the wick consumed, and the constituent parts separated, the light will also be extinguished and lost."

Then we have these Bible verses:

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20
18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, * for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.m As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.n So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. o They all come from the dust,p and they all are returning to the dust.q 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?

As I interpret this to be saying that animals have a spirit just like humans have a spirit and when the body dies both the animal body and the human body return to dust. Nobody really knows if the human spirit ascends upwards or whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth.

But show me anything that Baha'u'llah wrote that says what Abdu'l-Baha said on the passage above and I will believe it.

 

[Trailblazer]

What's specific about the soul that isn't controlled by the brain and interpreted by the mind? (Apart from biology and psychology)

The soul does operate through the brain while we are alive in a physical body.

Part of our personality is part of the frontal lobe. People who have brain trauma in that area, their personality and identity can change based on where in the lobe the injury occurred. We can see the process of our emotions from our brain in MRIs and other brain scans. They have a physical cause and excited by many stressers.

It is true that part of our personality is part of the frontal lobe. while we are alive in a physical body, but when we no longer have a physical body the soul will be free of the impediments and diseases of the physical body and continue to function in a spiritual body in the spiritual world..

It doesn't devalue the interpretation of the soul, but the core of it is our brain, body, and psyche. Is there a distinct part of the soul that differentiates itself from the cause and processes of the brain?

I just remembered what Abdu'l-Baha said about soul, spirit and mind: Maybe this will help.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Then what does it say to you?

"this spirit will also naturally cease to exist" says to me that the animal spirit will not continue to exist after the body dies. I am not sorry to say that I do not believe that, and I know a lot of Baha'is who do not believe it either.

"After this is the animal spirit, which also results from the combination of elements that are brought together in a single composition. But this composition is more complete, and when by the decree of the almighty Lord it reaches a fuller degree of combination, the animal spirit, which consists in the power of the senses, comes to exist. This power perceives sensible realities—that which can be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or touched. After the separation and dissolution of these composed elements, this spirit will also naturally cease to exist. It is like this lamp before you: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together, light is produced; but when the oil is exhausted, the wick consumed, and the constituent parts separated, the light will also be extinguished and lost."

Then we have these Bible verses:

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20
18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, * for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.m As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.n So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. o They all come from the dust,p and they all are returning to the dust.q 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?

As I interpret this to be saying that animals have a spirit just like humans have a spirit and when the body dies both the animal body and the human body return to dust. Nobody really knows if the human spirit ascends upwards or whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth.

This is a great glimpse at our Oneness is it not? In that oneness, in this world there is an apex we can reach, which Abdul'baha describes like this; "All created things have their degree or stage of maturity. The period of maturity in the life of a tree is the time of its fruit-bearing... The animal attains a stage of full growth and completeness, and in the human kingdom man reaches his maturity when the light of his intelligence attains its greatest power and development..."

Consider we are of the same spirit of the animal, to which the spirit manifests in this world as various realities. This spirit has level of realization and as a human we see the mineral, vegetable, the animal, the human and we can with the spirit of faith see the manifestation of God. Our vision takes in all realities and can see what is not seen in this world.

When we all turn to dust, the spirit is not longer in this reality and we then see what the spirit is in the next reality, who know what form the trees take? What form does the animal take? what form does the human take?

What I do consider though, is if we develop our mind, we will see what shape and form all spirit takes. To that end Abdul'baha offered this; "Man must now become imbued with new virtues and powers, new moral standards, new capacities. New bounties, perfect bestowals, are awaiting and already descending upon him."

But show me anything that Baha'u'llah wrote that says what Abdu'l-Baha said on the passage above and I will believe it.

What Abdul'Baha wrote, is what Baha'u'llah offered. Thus it is up to us to consider what it all means.

Regards Tony

 

[cataway]

Even it that is true, we can no more know that what Abdu'l-Baha wrote is what He heard from Baha'u'llah than Christians can know that what is in the New Testament is what Jesus said. It is a matter of faith, not fact.

Then what does it say to you?

"this spirit will also naturally cease to exist" says to me that the animal spirit will not continue to exist after the body dies. I am not sorry to say that I do not believe that, and I know a lot of Baha'is who do not believe it either.

"After this is the animal spirit, which also results from the combination of elements that are brought together in a single composition. But this composition is more complete, and when by the decree of the almighty Lord it reaches a fuller degree of combination, the animal spirit, which consists in the power of the senses, comes to exist. This power perceives sensible realities—that which can be seen, heard, tasted, smelled, or touched. After the separation and dissolution of these composed elements, this spirit will also naturally cease to exist. It is like this lamp before you: When oil, wick, and flame are brought together, light is produced; but when the oil is exhausted, the wick consumed, and the constituent parts separated, the light will also be extinguished and lost."

Then we have these Bible verses:

Ecclesiastes 3:18-20
18 I also said in my heart about the sons of men that the true God will test them and show them that they are like animals, * for humans and an outcome for animals; they all have the same outcome.m As the one dies, so the other dies; and they all have but one spirit.n So man has no superiority over animals, for everything is futile. o They all come from the dust,p and they all are returning to the dust.q 21 Who really knows whether the spirit of humans ascends upward, and whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth?

As I interpret this to be saying that animals have a spirit just like humans have a spirit and when the body dies both the animal body and the human body return to dust. Nobody really knows if the human spirit ascends upwards or whether the spirit of animals descends down to the earth.

But show me anything that Baha'u'llah wrote that says what Abdu'l-Baha said on the passage above and I will believe it.

the spirit of a body is biochemical electricity , when that is gone its no different than a dead electric circuit in your house

 

[Trailblazer]

What Abdul'Baha wrote, is what Baha'u'llah offered. Thus it is up to us to consider what it all means.

No, it is what Abdu'l-Baha offered, since He is the one who wrote it.

Abdu'l-Baha is in no way equivalent to Baha'u'llah because he was not infallible, even if Baha'is would like to believe that.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

The soul does operate through the brain while we are alive in a physical body.

It is true that part of our personality is part of the frontal lobe. while we are alive in a physical body, but when we no longer have a physical body the soul will be free of the impediments and diseases of the physical body and continue to function in a spiritual body in the spiritual world..

I just remembered what Abdu'l-Baha said about soul, spirit and mind: Maybe this will help.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings. But the human spirit, unless assisted by the spirit of faith, does not become acquainted with the divine secrets and the heavenly realities. It is like a mirror which, although clear, polished and brilliant, is still in need of light. Until a ray of the sun reflects upon it, it cannot discover the heavenly secrets.

But the mind is the power of the human spirit. Spirit is the lamp; mind is the light which shines from the lamp. Spirit is the tree, and the mind is the fruit. Mind is the perfection of the spirit and is its essential quality, as the sun’s rays are the essential necessity of the sun.” Some Answered Questions, pp. 208-209

The brain doesn't interpret neurons firing etc that create the external expressions of our emotions. So, the personality, emotions, things of that nature we define are foreign to the brain as it doesn't have a language that we can use to differentiate it from core of our personality (which you've called soul?). Once the body dies, the spirit or energy has nothing to "keep it alive" so when the body goes so does the spirit (or soul if one wills).

I would ask how the soul is dependent on the body to survive if when the body dies, the soul does not. If the soul is paramount to one's spiritual survival, it would make sense that the body wouldn't "hold down" the soul. It can exist on its own. That's most likely where the idea of ghosts come from. Leaving the living body as a separate entity. However, if the soul's survival depends on one's death, there needs to be a concrete definition of the soul that's not dependent on the body.

I'll be direct, explaining it in spiritual language doesn't make the belief more valid than a direct less abstract explanation. So, unless one is guessing or hoping that a separate soul exist, there's got to be some idea of what that means (and spiritual world) apart from scripture (which is written by humans on earth in human language), the brain (the physiological and mental expressions and interpretations of spiritual experiences), the body (the expression thereof), and the mind (religious biases).

Most say it's a mystery or choose not to describe it for whatever reason. If it's a mystery, etc then it would be hard to even suggest it's existence without some core characteristics that differentiates it from what I mentioned above.

Ya dig?

 

[Trailblazer]

the spirit of a body is biochemical electricity , when that is gone its no different than a dead electric circuit in your house

The body of a man is made up of elements and when the body decomposes it is gone .
It does not rise from the grave and get recomposed into elements.