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Do you believe in reincarnation?

JRMcC

Active Member
There are a lot of interesting perspectives here, a lot to think about. My current view has elements of @Sunstone 's @Quintessence 's and @9-10ths_Penguin 's.

Reading these though, the following popped into my head. I think it's worth being mindful of how much our thoughts and actions are influenced by people who are dead. Maybe it's not reincarnation per se, but a lot of people who die continue to live on in a way.
 

JRMcC

Active Member
Namaste,

I will give my (Hindu) perspective on this, i know that we as Hindus have many different beliefs regarding many issues, and this is purely my personal understanding.

PurnaJanma (previous birth) is of the Atman (not identity or ego), Atman is something that cannot actually be completely destroyed therefore it must after the body has decayed acquire another form (This is our truth claim), this acquisition is based on the Sanskaras that the Atman as accumulated through karma in life (this is another truth claim). This is based on the observation of many things in life, most prominent of this is the observation of the cyclic nature of all things, things are born, they grow, they die, then new things grow out of them and the cycle continues, so the same must apply to us as Humans and all other life forms, and because we are all individual and life happens to each individual in different times and places this is attributed to the Sanskaras and because it can be observed that some Sanskaras come without the influences of the outside world these must be transferred from a previous life, therefore we must have lived previously (this is our observation, assuming the two claims to be true). Sanskaras are similar to memory but not the memory of the things but memory of our Karm, more like impressions. So me and you as our Ego and Ahankara does not get birth again, this is more to explain the separate situations people seem to be born into this world, so accumulate good Sanskara, do your Karma without attachment to the Pahala as the Phala (rebirth) is uncertain (this is our reason to believe).

Dhanyavad

I see what you're saying, especially about the cycle living things go through. In fact I almost mentioned something like this in my previous response but I chose not to. Humankind is just a cycle, people live more or less the same lives over and over again. I might as well be the reincarnation of some person who lived in the past because chances are I'm acting out the same play with different props.

Do you believe that a plant that dies reincarnates as a different plant? Just trying to understand.
 

Satyamavejayanti

Well-Known Member
"JRMcC, post: 4627194, member: 56011"]I see what you're saying, especially about the cycle living things go through. In fact I almost mentioned something like this in my previous response but I chose not to. Humankind is just a cycle, people live more or less the same lives over and over again. I might as well be the reincarnation of some person who lived in the past because chances are I'm acting out the same play with different props.

Namaste,

I must clarify that the claims of Atman, Karm, Sanskara could have originated from the observation of the cyclic life not the other way around. So Atman is What is born again, Sanskara is how the new birth is, and Sanskara is because of Karma - and it is advised that the Phala (end result of Karm) is uncertain and Janma is contingent on Karma Phalla (in other words Sanskara) and this is the basis of PurnaJanma.

Do you believe that a plant that dies reincarnates as a different plant? Just trying to understand.

I don't know, im assuming when it decays it becomes food for other seeds which grow into other plants- and the cycle continues. knowing this we could be eating our ancestors for dinner. lol
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Reading these though, the following popped into my head. I think it's worth being mindful of how much our thoughts and actions are influenced by people who are dead. Maybe it's not reincarnation per se, but a lot of people who die continue to live on in a way.
It goes beyond that, IMO. A community of sentient beings such as humanity taps potentials that are quite remarkable indeed.

What we call "human life" is at its core the art, duty and joy of dealing with the unending flow of legacies received from others and passed along to yet others, often crossing back and forth during one's life.

But the flow is by no means limited in its effects and benefits to people who live at the same time. Despite a lot of destructive insanity that threatens the whole process, sentience makes it possible to build a lasting legacy that survives any individual and benefits the whole community well into the future. Writing and medicine are perhaps the most visible evidences of that, but there are quite a lot of subtler legacies at any given time. They vary a lot in significance, health and duration, but they are very much there.

I still would not call that reincarnation, but I suppose it deserves some name. Perhaps "living flow"?
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
I fluctuate between property dualism and substance dualism, the latter would make some kind of reincarnation a possibility. Maybe some sort of recycling of consciousness, assuming that consciousness is a discreet element of some kind.
 
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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
This is true for some understandings of reincarnation, yes. For Pagans who are materialists, though, they would view reincarnation as the recycling of things, though not as a "just." It is understood as a sacred process, and not "just" or "merely" anything, if that makes sense. As for how the matter of pattern/essence is interpreted, it varies and can get somewhat complicated. Paganisms on the whole emphasize interconnection in a way that throws a wrench in this-that thinking. It's not uncommon to see contemporary Pagans who view themselves as a legacy of their ancestors - that some essence/pattern of the ancestors is present within us. Even the essence/patterns of the foods we eat - the things we kill to live - become part of us, for some. It's just a different way of viewing the world.
I'm not sure that I trust you to speak for Pagan materialists... or anyone other than yourself, really.

There is another school of thought that says consciousness is not the result of physical activity in the brain but that it incarnates the physical and at the time of death, the physical outer shell is dropped and consciousness continues in the astral double body with the clarity back that was lost when experiencing through the physical body. In NDE's people claim even greater clarity and sense of reality than when they were in their old physical state; e.g. they dropped the densest link in the chain supporting consciousness (the physical body).

As I see it, the key question in all of this is; do you believe consciousness is the creation of the brain or do you believe consciousness incarnates the brain. I have come to believe the latter from my study of the paranormal and the teachings of the eastern (Indian) spiritual traditions.

So I'm answering your question 'why on earth' would some believe that he survived.
So religious tradition, basically. Not exactly a compelling justification for people who care about evidence, IMO.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
I'm not sure that I trust you to speak for Pagan materialists... or anyone other than yourself, really.

If you have so little trust in my 10+ years in the community and spending a lot of time with the material produced by the community, such as podcasts, magazines, blogs, books, and also literature written about the movement by academics, then go read the literature yourself. Go spend that decade doing what I've done. Except I wager you won't. So what was the point of this jab, exactly?
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
While I personally believe in some sort of "reincarnation," I have several issues that keep me from solidifying my thoughts about what it might be, and I keep having issues with what others advance.

First among these is the assumption that I keep seeing (not just here, but in almost everything I've ever read or heard on the subject of life and death and the afterlife and reincarnation/transmigration, and so on) we are just one or two things: A body, and perhaps, A spirit or soul.

What is our body? It's a pattern of matter and energy that is not constant, that changes over time. We recognize, for example, that we have almost total replacement of cells in the body roughly every 7 years--but the implications for this are not well thought out, at least as far as I've seen. What biologists and chemists have realized--but the implications still are not well understood, imo--is that the atoms that make up our cells and our bodies are replaced much more quickly than that. All of the hydrogen and oxygen atoms in your body at this moment, for instance, will be gone, replaced by other atoms, in a matter of just a few weeks. The longest-lasting atoms are calcium in our bones, which are all replaced after about 20 years.

Our bodies, therefore, are not constant things, but patterns of matter and energy flow maintained over a period much longer than our attention span. We think we are a body, but it's better to recognize that we are a process, a pattern.

What is our mind, our consciousness? It does seem to be a part of that pattern, an amazing consistent pattern of response to environmental inputs (such as the matter and energy that we consume and that constructs our bodies and flows out again, the sensory input, etc.) that allows us to be an ongoing person, with intelligence, personality, habits, preferences, learning ability, and so on. Is that an emergent property of that pattern of matter and energy that is our body? Or, is that indicative of something that sometimes is called "higher" consciousness, an astral body or nature that we can experience but has not yet be empirically demonstrated to everyone's satisfaction?

For the people who think we humans have a spirit/soul, why is the thought almost entirely singular? Some cultures, I've heard, think people have multiple-part souls, up to maybe a dozen parts, each often associated with specific aspects of the body, the mind, or the functioning of the individual. I don't see why we don't consider having hundreds, thousands, millions or more parts of spirit/soul--just as we do with tissues and organs of the body, or cells, or atoms...And if there are lots of spiritual parts,what is to prevent some from going off to the "higher" planes of existence, some being absorbed by other beings, some being dissipated into the environment, others hanging around to "haunt" the places where the individual lived and/or died, and others being moved on to inhabit another person?

I don't have answers. I've got questions that have developed over time as I left being a monist and then a dualist until I've become a pluralist.

We base so much of our thought on the matter and energy we know and experience: we now know there are four kinds of "forces," that govern the subatomic and classical-level worlds and give rise to the 115-plus elements and all their isotopes.

But only comparatively recently have we realized that all that matter and energy we know and experience is about 5 percent of what exists in the universe, and there is something, and perhaps it is really several somethings, that we call Dark Matter, and that it makes up several times more of the universe than does our "ordinary" matter. And then, most recently, we've discovered the apparent existence of what we call Dark Energy--and we really have no clue as to what that is, but that it apparently makes up more than two-thirds of the universe.

What happens to "us" when we die? Maybe nothing, maybe lots of things. I believe parts of me have gone on from the past and will go on into the future. But I have no idea how, nor why, nor even if its actually true. And a lot of our arguing is pointless because we don't know very much about our universe, and we don't even look at "ourselves" in the right way to understand.

Apologies: end of philosophical rant.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
If you have so little trust in my 10+ years in the community and spending a lot of time with the material produced by the community, such as podcasts, magazines, blogs, books, and also literature written about the movement by academics, then go read the literature yourself. Go spend that decade doing what I've done. Except I wager you won't. So what was the point of this jab, exactly?
Just that I've noticed a tendency from you to present your rather unique views as representative of a much wider spectrum than the people who would actually agree with you.

In this case, presenting your position as representative of a community so diverse that no particular view would be representative of all of it was a big red flag.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Just that I've noticed a tendency from you to present your rather unique views as representative of a much wider spectrum than the people who would actually agree with you.

That was not actually my intention. My apologies if it read that way.

Still, my views really aren't all that unique within the Neopagan community. Maybe it seems more unique to you because you aren't immersed in that subculture like I am. The areas where I'm more unique within that community are definitely not on the subject of reincarnation. Things that are more distinct for me? I'm aware that my heavy incorporation of the sciences is uncommon within the community (as far as I've observed), and my take on the Four Elements is also unorthodox. Little things here and there like that.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
So religious tradition, basically. Not exactly a compelling justification for people who care about evidence, IMO.
The post wasn't about presenting the evidence. It was answering the question as to why in the world one could believe your father's return to clarity was possible. The answer was a different view of what the source of consciousness is.

As for evidence, I point to rational analysis of the paranormal evidence that I believe defy and contradict materialist thinking. Here is a link to one such summary for anyone interested in further consideration: Afterlife Evidence

The model of how the afterlife works comes from those who claim to sense beyond the physical and the teachings of one of mankind's wisdom traditions (eastern/Indian). The paranormal evidence, the insights of the alleged 'gifted' and the eastern wisdom traditions I find dovetail nicely to form my worldview on such matters.
 

Sand Dancer

Currently catless
When I say 'believe' here I don't mean it in a negative way, like accepting with blind faith. I used to believe in reincarnation because it made sense to me on an intellectual level. Lately I have a very hard time believing that it's possible, even though there's a part of me that still feels like it's true. I have an old teacher and friend that believes in reincarnation, and I've been meaning to do some soul searching and revisit this question. But I've been too busy and preoccupied to much if any spiritual thinking.

I

I do. Our souls are eternal, so I think we learn how to be Godly through subsequent lives.
 

arthra

Baha'i
I was wondering if anyone could share any insights they have on the topic and give me something to think about.

There was a time when I accepted the concept of reincarnation and also karma as a related concept... but in time I came to accept that we are not truly "incarnated" rather what we call the soul is a light cast out from the spiritual world and at the end of our stay in this world that light returns to the spiritual world. Several processes are going on in our existence... We associate ourselves with our forebears ... by associating with them I mean we identify with them. We also see the cyclic nature of life.. The seasons changing and "returning" year after year. We also see plants and animals appear and reappear.. I believe it was quite natural for ancient people to accept a cyclic view of life from these simple observations.
 
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