Do you consider Satanism a valid Pagan tradition?

[The Kilted Heathen]

...in the works of fiction in which he is a character, that is his will and his goal, and those concepts are things that he uses to do so.

It's not very fair (or accurate) to refer to Hebrew mythology as a "work of fiction."

However, no. Satan (properly Ha-Satan) was not originally the "antagonist" of his original mythology. Ha-Satan means "the Prosecutor," and as stated he was a manner of divine judge; the head of the so-called "Sons of God". His role is not antagonistic, but judicial. As said before, he tests the pious to ensure their piety. He cannot do this without permission, thus it's not really "his goal." To explain this I'm going to use the Book of Job, which is as close as I personally can get. Color-coded for ease of explaining.

One day the angels came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan also came with them. The LORD said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Satan answered the LORD, “From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it.” Then the LORD said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil.” “Does Job fear God for nothing?” Satan replied. “Have you not put a hedge around him and his household and everything he has? You have blessed the work of his hands, so that his flocks and herds are spread throughout the land. But now stretch out your hand and strike everything he has, and he will surely curse you to your face.” The LORD said to Satan, “Very well, then, everything he has is in your power, but on the man himself do not lay a finger.” Then Satan went out from the presence of the LORD.

Alright, so here we see Satan roaming around in Heaven. But wait, I thought the "devil" was imprisoned in "hell," and banished from "heaven"? Why would he be allowed there? Satan, however, is there with the angels as one of them. They are the council, the Sons of God. Satan is named because he is the head of that council, and is the most important. He is The Prosecutor.

Next, we see Yahweh ask the council where they have been. Here he asks Satan, as chief of the council, but his question is directed to the council as a whole body. Satan, in a likewise manner, answers for the group. Then, Yahweh boasts to Satan (and the council,) his servant Job, and what a great man he is. Satan then offers the possibility that Job might not be so great.

Taking this into consideration, Yahweh then gives Satan, as the Prosecutor, leave to test Job's faith. Notice that Satan could not act on this testing until given the express command of Yahweh? He lacks the authority to act. Ergo all "Satan's actions" are in fact Yahweh's, as they come from his direct command.

"The Devil" as a multi-name evil figure of corruption and "anti-god" behavior was devised somewhere around 400 BCE by St. Augustine of Hippo as a solution to the issue of the presence of Evil with a singular, omnibenevolent god.

The reason I brought the latter part up is because in Paganism, Darth Vader and Christianity are both fiction. And so is Satan. If you say otherwise, it would be nice for you to name some authentic sources or evidence.

No, Christianity and Satan are not considered "fiction" in Paganism, but by the individual. Paganism takes no stance on Christianity or Satan but that they are essentially "non-Pagan." There are some Pagans who (individually) actively worship Satan, not as Satanism but as an inclusion of the angel in their ritual and worship.

How can it be said that Satanism doesn't respect nature?

Not respect, but revere. As in we Pagans actively worship elements of nature as physical aspects of our gods.

 

[1137]

It's not very fair (or accurate) to refer to Hebrew mythology as a "work of fiction."

However, no. Satan (properly Ha-Satan) was not originally the "antagonist" of his original mythology. Ha-Satan means "the Prosecutor," and as stated he was a manner of divine judge; the head of the so-called "Sons of God". His role is not antagonistic, but judicial. As said before, he tests the pious to ensure their piety. He cannot do this without permission, thus it's not really "his goal." To explain this I'm going to use the Book of Job, which is as close as I personally can get. Color-coded for ease of explaining.



Alright, so here we see Satan roaming around in Heaven. But wait, I thought the "devil" was imprisoned in "hell," and banished from "heaven"? Why would he be allowed there? Satan, however, is there with the angels as one of them. They are the council, the Sons of God. Satan is named because he is the head of that council, and is the most important. He is The Prosecutor.

Next, we see Yahweh ask the council where they have been. Here he asks Satan, as chief of the council, but his question is directed to the council as a whole body. Satan, in a likewise manner, answers for the group. Then, Yahweh boasts to Satan (and the council,) his servant Job, and what a great man he is. Satan then offers the possibility that Job might not be so great.

Taking this into consideration, Yahweh then gives Satan, as the Prosecutor, leave to test Job's faith. Notice that Satan could not act on this testing until given the express command of Yahweh? He lacks the authority to act. Ergo all "Satan's actions" are in fact Yahweh's, as they come from his direct command.

"The Devil" as a multi-name evil figure of corruption and "anti-god" behavior was devised somewhere around 400 BCE by St. Augustine of Hippo as a solution to the issue of the presence of Evil with a singular, omnibenevolent god.


No, Christianity and Satan are not considered "fiction" in Paganism, but by the individual. Paganism takes no stance on Christianity or Satan but that they are essentially "non-Pagan." There are some Pagans who (individually) actively worship Satan, not as Satanism but as an inclusion of the angel in their ritual and worship.


Not respect, but revere. As in we Pagans actively worship elements of nature as physical aspects of our gods.

Like the individual self? Or chaos? Or storms? Or sex?

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Like the individual self? Or chaos? Or storms? Or sex?

From what I've seen - correct me if I'm wrong - Satanism doesn't actually worship nature. It is not considered a Nature-based religion; "nature" here meaning flora and fauna, not things like "human nature."

 

[1137]

From what I've seen - correct me if I'm wrong - Satanism doesn't actually worship nature. It is not considered a Nature-based religion; "nature" here meaning flora and fauna, not things like "human nature."

So looks like Satanism is even more of nature worship, not excluding human beings

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

So looks like Satanism is even more of nature worship,

Would you mind explaining how?

 

[Toten]

It's not very fair (or accurate) to refer to Hebrew mythology as a "work of fiction."

However, no. Satan (properly Ha-Satan) was not originally the "antagonist" of his original mythology. Ha-Satan means "the Prosecutor," and as stated he was a manner of divine judge; the head of the so-called "Sons of God". His role is not antagonistic, but judicial. As said before, he tests the pious to ensure their piety. He cannot do this without permission, thus it's not really "his goal." To explain this I'm going to use the Book of Job, which is as close as I personally can get. Color-coded for ease of explaining.



"The Devil" as a multi-name evil figure of corruption and "anti-god" behavior was devised somewhere around 400 BCE by St. Augustine of Hippo as a solution to the issue of the presence of Evil with a singular, omnibenevolent god.


No, Christianity and Satan are not considered "fiction" in Paganism, but by the individual. Paganism takes no stance on Christianity or Satan but that they are essentially "non-Pagan." There are some Pagans who (individually) actively worship Satan, not as Satanism but as an inclusion of the angel in their ritual and worship.


Not respect, but revere. As in we Pagans actively worship elements of nature as physical aspects of our gods.

"Satan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן‎‎ satan, meaning "enemy" or "adversary";[1] Arabic: شيطان‎‎ shaitan, meaning; "astray", "distant", or sometimes "devil") is a figure appearing in the texts of the Abrahamic religions[2][3] who brings evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver who leads humanity astray."

In the bible, Satan is the father of sin. Sin includes many things which according to the bible are "against god" or go against his will. Such as:
Lying, Cheating, Stealing, Murder, Pre-Marital Sex, Adultery, Drunkenness, Gluttony, Lust, Anger, Greed, Dishonor, Disloyalty, Not believing in and loving god, and Pride.

Alright, so here we see Satan roaming around in Heaven. But wait, I thought the "devil" was imprisoned in "hell," and banished from "heaven"? Why would he be allowed there? Satan, however, is there with the angels as one of them. They are the council, the Sons of God. Satan is named because he is the head of that council, and is the most important. He is The Prosecutor.

Next, we see Yahweh ask the council where they have been. Here he asks Satan, as chief of the council, but his question is directed to the council as a whole body. Satan, in a likewise manner, answers for the group. Then, Yahweh boasts to Satan (and the council,) his servant Job, and what a great man he is. Satan then offers the possibility that Job might not be so great.

Taking this into consideration, Yahweh then gives Satan, as the Prosecutor, leave to test Job's faith. Notice that Satan could not act on this testing until given the express command of Yahweh? He lacks the authority to act. Ergo all "Satan's actions" are in fact Yahweh's, as they come from his direct command.

Because the bible contradicts itself. Often. It was written by many men over a span of about 2 and a half thousand years, coming from completely different cultures with completely different standards.

There are some Pagans who (individually) actively worship Satan, not as Satanism but as an inclusion of the angel in their ritual and worship.

Not for the most part in ancient European pagan cultures. Despite the bi-theism written about in the brief periods of co-existence in northern Europe between christians and pagans (around end of Viking age or so), most cultures who didn't outright convert (or were forced to be converted) rejected christianity, and led rebellions against those spreading it in their lands. The Saxons, the Frisians, the Swedes, the Danes, the Norwegians, the Lithuanians, etc.
If one were to simply worship Satan as just one of many deities, then that would be a very different type of Pagan than the aforementioned. Thus it wouldn't really pass the question "Is satanism a Pagan TRADITION".
Is Satan traditionally part of Paganism (at least outside the middle-east)? No.
Can one worship Satan and many other deities and still be a "Pagan"? Technically yes.
But I could worship Zoroaster, Yahweh, Allah, Shiva, Osiris, Odin, and Cernunnos all at the same time despite all of their contradictions (just like satan contradicts many aspects of traditional European paganism) and still be considered a "Pagan" since it's not really a hard-defined term.

 

[Toten]

Seems like you simply reject cross cultural similarities that you don't like.

Could you name some Satanist cultures in history then? Go ahead, I'm listening.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

"Satan (Hebrew: שָּׂטָן‎‎ satan, meaning "enemy" or "adversary";[1] Arabic: شيطان‎‎ shaitan, meaning; "astray", "distant", or sometimes "devil") is a figure appearing in the texts of the Abrahamic religions[2][3] who brings evil and temptation, and is known as the deceiver who leads humanity astray."

Wikipedia isn't necessarily the best source for religion. Yes, "satan" means adversary as an adverb; this usage can be used for anyone, such as when Jesus called Peter "satan". As a figure - Ha-Satan - it means "The Prosecutor" or "The Accuser". In the judicial sense that his office serves, he's basically the Prosecution: the Defense is you, and the court hearing is your piety. This is the original Satan, not what Christianity has made of him.

Because the bible contradicts itself. Often.

Not all that much in the Old Testament - which is where Job takes place - which is more or less a collection of Hebrew myths and tales. The Book of Job is as close as I can get to the original, only because I don't have a Jewish Torah on hand. The point remains, however, as to the narrative and meaning of the story; Satan isn't the "bad guy", and he can't do anything of his own volition.

Not for the most part in ancient European pagan cultures.

We're not really talking about ancient paganism. At least I'm not; I'm talking about the now. Paganism today. It may not be a common thing, but there are Pagans out there who acknowledge and worship Satan. Point being that he and Christianity aren't regarded as "fiction" by Paganism as a whole. They are simply regarded as non-Pagan and foreign.

 

[1137]

Could you name some Satanist cultures in history then? Go ahead, I'm listening.

I've already mentioned several times through history where these groups appear. The Setian priesthoods and pharaohs, as well as early Egyptian ideology. The idea of Prometheus stealing the fire of the gods in order to give it to man kind, and being thoroughly punished for it. Tiama in Sumer and Babylon, the evil primordial serpent who brought forth all demons. Ahriman, the father of all evil and dark things. Unfortunately I'm not well versed outside of the ancient middle east. But like I said, I found Carus' book on kindle for $1, it's only flaw being it lacks some of the massive discovers about Egypt from people like Te Velde. Lords of the Left Hand Path is probably one of the best book on the topics, and I highly recommend it. I'd also recommend just general cultural studies, where you can see for yourself the similarities underlying all cultures. When you think about it this is not very shocking at all. Human beings all work in similar ways, we have similar psyche's, and we experience similar events like birth, death, love, fear, as well as natural characteristics like the same constellations, acts of weather, and so forth.

 

[Toten]

I've already mentioned several times through history where these groups appear. The Setian priesthoods and pharaohs, as well as early Egyptian ideology. The idea of Prometheus stealing the fire of the gods in order to give it to man kind, and being thoroughly punished for it. Tiama in Sumer and Babylon, the evil primordial serpent who brought forth all demons. Ahriman, the father of all evil and dark things. Unfortunately I'm not well versed outside of the ancient middle east. But like I said, I found Carus' book on kindle for $1, it's only flaw being it lacks some of the massive discovers about Egypt from people like Te Velde. Lords of the Left Hand Path is probably one of the best book on the topics, and I highly recommend it. I'd also recommend just general cultural studies, where you can see for yourself the similarities underlying all cultures. When you think about it this is not very shocking at all. Human beings all work in similar ways, we have similar psyche's, and we experience similar events like birth, death, love, fear, as well as natural characteristics like the same constellations, acts of weather, and so forth.

Those would be Pagan cultures worshiping Pagan deities which the bible and Abrahamics made out to be "Satan and his demons".
Egyptians and Babylonians did not worship "Satan", nor did they worship "Demons". Thus they are not "Satanist cultures". They worshiped their gods, and that they saw them as. There are similarities between those PAGAN cultures and others, yes, but Satan has nothing to do with the picture. If you want to believe or practice what they did, then you'd simply be practicing Egyptian or Mesopotamian Paganism. "Satan" has nothing to do with it.

We're not really talking about ancient paganism. At least I'm not; I'm talking about the now. Paganism today. It may not be a common thing, but there are Pagans out there who acknowledge and worship Satan. Point being that he and Christianity aren't regarded as "fiction" by Paganism as a whole. They are simply regarded as non-Pagan and foreign.

The original question was if Satanism is a valid Pagan TRADITION. A tradition is passed down over many years, generation to generation. If something inauthentic comes into the picture, then it's not part of the tradition. Hence why I speak of the Paganism of the past and not modern paganism as we know it today.

We can talk about Paganism today all you'd like, to which I'd again bring up my comment about if someone were to worship Zoroaster, Allah, Yahweh, Odin, Osiris, Shiva, and Cernunnos all at the same time.

As I've said before, there were Pagans near the end of the Viking age who added Christian elements to their religion. We can see that through texts describing it during the brief period of Christian-Pagan coexistence, and church art depicting both scenes from the bible and scenes from the eddas.
That doesn't, however, make Christianity a valid Pagan tradition either.

Us now trying to attribute "Satan" to traditional Paganism makes us no different than the late-Viking-Age Pagans who tried to attribute "Jesus" to traditional Paganism.

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

The original question was if Satanism is a valid Pagan TRADITION. A tradition is passed down over many years, generation to generation. If something inauthentic comes into the picture, then it's not part of the tradition. Hence why I speak of the Paganism of the past and not modern paganism as we know it today.

In general terms, "tradition" is meant to differentiate between various cultural differences of Paganism. e.g. Norse Tradition, Germanic Tradition, Gaulish Tradition, etc. Even still, Contemporary Paganism has been around since the 50's, and as earliest since the 70's. I think we're well beyond the length of time for things to become tradition.

I brought up modern Pagans who worship Satan, though, to rebut your statement that Satan and Christianity is "fiction" to Pagans.

 

[Toten]

Satan isn't the "bad guy", and he can't do anything of his own volition.

Whether you think of him as a good guy or bad guy is up to you. Personally, I think drunkenness, adultery, greed, gluttony, lying, etc. are bad. One of the few things I can agree with the bible about.

 

[1137]

Those would be Pagan cultures worshiping Pagan deities which the bible and Abrahamics made out to be "Satan and his demons".
Egyptians and Babylonians did not worship "Satan", nor did they worship "Demons". Thus they are not "Satanist cultures". They worshiped their gods, and that they saw them as. There are similarities between those PAGAN cultures and others, yes, but Satan has nothing to do with the picture. If you want to believe or practice what they did, then you'd simply be practicing Egyptian or Mesopotamian Paganism. "Satan" has nothing to do with it.



The original question was if Satanism is a valid Pagan TRADITION. A tradition is passed down over many years, generation to generation. If something inauthentic comes into the picture, then it's not part of the tradition. Hence why I speak of the Paganism of the past and not modern paganism as we know it today.

We can talk about Paganism today all you'd like, to which I'd again bring up my comment about if someone were to worship Zoroaster, Allah, Yahweh, Odin, Osiris, Shiva, and Cernunnos all at the same time.

As I've said before, there were Pagans near the end of the Viking age who added Christian elements to their religion. We can see that through texts describing it during the brief period of Christian-Pagan coexistence, and church art depicting both scenes from the bible and scenes from the eddas.
That doesn't, however, make Christianity a valid Pagan tradition either.

Us now trying to attribute "Satan" to traditional Paganism makes us no different than the late-Viking-Age Pagans who tried to attribute "Jesus" to traditional Paganism.

If we pretend Satan came out of nowhere based on nothing you'd have a point. That's not how the world works unfortunately. May you one day Xeper!

 

[Toten]

In general terms, "tradition" is meant to differentiate between various cultural differences of Paganism. e.g. Norse Tradition, Germanic Tradition, Gaulish Tradition, etc. Even still, Contemporary Paganism has been around since the 50's, and as earliest since the 70's. I think we're well beyond the length of time for things to become tradition.

I brought up modern Pagans who worship Satan, though, to rebut your statement that Satan and Christianity is "fiction" to Pagans.

Then you shouldn't have brought up modern Pagans then. Since I wasn't referring to them when I said that, I was referring to Pagans still part of the uninterrupted tradition. The SAXONS, and FRISIANS and the other groups I mentioned who led mass rebellions against christian invaders are not "modern pagans".

 

[Toten]

If we pretend Satan came out of nowhere based on nothing you'd have a point. That's not how the world works unfortunately. May you one day Xeper!

He didn't come out of nowhere. He came out of these guys:

 

[The Kilted Heathen]

Would you mind explaining how [Satanism is nature worship]?

Bumping this for you, 1137.

Whether you think of him as a good guy or bad guy is up to you.

I am referring to the "original" Satan, as you referenced earlier on.

Then you shouldn't have brought up modern Pagans then. Since I wasn't referring to them when I said that, I was referring to Pagans still part of the uninterrupted tradition.

There is no such thing as the "uninterrupted tradition" within Paganism. Ancient Paganism fell with the conquering of Jaromarsburg, the last pagan fortress, in 1168.

 

[1137]

He didn't come out of nowhere. He came out of these guys:

Yep, cultures and mythology form in a vacuum. You're quite the anthropologist!

 

[Toten]

There is no such thing as the "uninterrupted tradition" within Paganism. Ancient Paganism fell with the conquering of Jaromarsburg, the last pagan fortress, in 1168.

First of all, Paganism existed in Europe for hundreds of years likely until the 1400's, since the last Pagan king in Europe was officially christianized in the late 1300's, it's logical to assume there were still individual Pagans living there afterwards.
And that is what I was referring to. The "uninterrupted" tradition. Ie, BEFORE the late middle ages.

 

[Toten]

Yep, cultures and mythology form in a vacuum. You're quite the anthropologist!

Satan didn't form in a vacuum. He formed from these guys:

(Those weren't Pagans, by the way)

 

[1137]

Satan didn't form in a vacuum. He formed from these guys:

(Those weren't Pagans, by the way)

So your belief is that these people never came in contact with any other myth or culture, and created theirs entirely from scratch? I mean, really?