Do you ever get the feeling there could be a higher power?

[Sha'irullah]

When I think of the vagueness of god and "higher power" i think of the more accurate term, "Supreme Being."

 

[Monk Of Reason]

G'day

I was discussing a/theism with a friend of mine recently, who is an atheist. He admitted he sometimes 'feels' there could be a higher power, and/or wants there to be a 'greater purpose' in life, but then he does a reality check and moves on. He can understand how other people pursue those feelings, though.

I was surprised to hear he had those feelings sometimes.

Do other atheists experience the same?

I have caught myself with wishful thinking of the sort. And I've even been tempted to believe certain things as I might be able to convince myself, if even for a little while, but I also know that it would be lying to myself.

Here is a good quote I found that seems to be along these lines.

 

[Treks]

Is that Adam Savage?

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Is that Adam Savage?

Yes. Yes it is.

 

[Yerda]

I sometimes suspect that reality is the way it is because of the measurements of conscious beings. Like it's all a big unfolding story being created by the agreement between observers. I reckon it's born of the desire for existence to have intrinsic meaning and hope that we're somehow at the centre of it.

 

[Cephus]

Nope, I never get the feeling that there is a higher power. There is no evidence for it.

 

[Whiterain]

I was waning back and forth between gnosticism/agnosticism and atheism, in a sense of trying to find something I felt was right and something I would naturally commit to. - Long wondering from the ideals of the modern monotheistic omnipotent overlord that watches us all.

I think it's more a question of practicality, not ignorance - The odds there is/ are supernatural beings in this universe, used your wildest imagination, try aliens that are made of Light, Energy. The question isn't entirely out of fact but benefit of a doubt there are supernatural beings, compared to mortals.

But then again, I find it the wrong answer saying we can find new Gods, "out there.".

I've never understood the double standard, but it's certainly driving people mad. These are tough times we live in, close calls with asteroids, natural cataclysm, Solar Maximums, climate change, WW3, the next genocde. ****, I'm impressed with peoples fortitude thus far, most people are just trying to keep it together.


Hail Odin.

 

[Marsh]

G'day
I was discussing a/theism with a friend of mine recently, who is an atheist. He admitted he sometimes 'feels' there could be a higher power, and/or wants there to be a 'greater purpose' in life, but then he does a reality check and moves on. He can understand how other people pursue those feelings, though.
I was surprised to hear he had those feelings sometimes.
Do other atheists experience the same?

I had occasional doubts, once upon a time. Up to age sixteen I was a fence sitter, leaning to one side of the issue or the other. Mostly I considered myself an atheist but at sixteen made a concerted effort to find God. After some two weeks the effort failed and I returned to my previous atheistic view.

The problem was that I couldn't completely shake my fear of Hell. What if I was wrong? I believe it was Susan Sontag who said, “Atheists cannot rest content until they have slain that final dragon,” or words to that effect, and, I think, what she meant was resolve the fear of Hell. It was that dragon that brought Peter Hitchens back into the religious fold and, I suspect, it may drag a few other atheists back to God from time to time, as well. Before I reached age seventeen that old uncertainty was resolved in my own mind. I didn't so much slay the dragon as simply realize one day that it was dead, but that's another story for another time.

So yes, some atheists live with a certain amount of uncertainty; others do not.

 

[Marsh]

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Apparently I misunderstood my friend, who says he never said what I said he said. O.O

He said he can understand how people feel the need for there to be a higher power. Which really isn't what I heard him say the first time *narrow eyes*

Still, your initial question remains relevant.

 

[Marsh]

I was that person so i think i should clarify....

Basically what i was trying to express to Treks in my own fumbling way, was that i can understand the urge to believe in some kind of higher power. I have not just rejected the idea of theism/deism out of hand, i just understand it is more a foible of the human psyche than a competent argument for the existence of some kind of higher power.

I agree with your analysis, still, some atheists do return to a belief in God. What is it that brings them back to religious faith if not a sense that there must be a higher power, or a fear of Hell? Francis Collins seems to have succumb to the former, while Peter Hitchens was dragged back by the latter sentiment. It seems to me that emotion, rather than logic, is the final arbiter in most cases.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I agree with your analysis, still, some atheists do return to a belief in God. What is it that brings them back to religious faith if not a sense that there must be a higher power, or a fear of Hell? Francis Collins seems to have succumb to the former, while Peter Hitchens was dragged back by the latter sentiment. It seems to me that emotion, rather than logic, is the final arbiter in most cases.

Sorry but Collins is lying out of his rear. He has never been an atheist just a pitchman and a very bad one. He had his doubts I am sure but he has never been an atheist, he just felt the urge to be militant.

 

[Marsh]

To be fair, there is no pressing reason why some people can't be fairly indifferent to the matter of belief in God.
It is somewhat rare, and somewhat discouraged in most societies but it probably happens fairly often nevertheless.

Agreed.

Personally, I am not “indifferent to the matter of belief in God,” as you put it, probably because I grew up believing in God and was a theist, off and on, to age sixteen, and for various reasons the matter even now seems important to me. My eldest son is also an atheist, was raised that way, but has no interest and no stake in the matter either way. He is probably as dispassionate on the matter of God as it is possible for a person to be. My youngest son, also an atheist, has a deep interest in the historical beginnings of Christianity, but has little interest in debating the merits of God's existence. He’d just as soon leave people to wallow in their superstition as engage them in a futile effort to educate and drag them from the entrenched ignorance that mires them.

Converts, it seems to me, are often the most fanatical supporters of a cause. Perhaps that is why I relish the debate as I do, and I wonder if it is the reason my sons show such little interest in the discussion.

 

[Marsh]

Sorry but Collins is lying out of his rear. He has never been an atheist just a pitchman and a very bad one. He had his doubts I am sure but he has never been an atheist, he just felt the urge to be militant.

LOL! Out of his "rear" eh? That's a new expression for me.

I don't think he is lying. I read his book, The Language of God, and he seemed legit to me. His parents were not the religious sort and I think he adopted the title of atheist pretty much as a default position. What he was missing in his life were arguments for atheism. I will say, his arguments for faith were naive and not thought through.

 

[Cephus]

LOL! Out of his "rear" eh? That's a new expression for me.

I don't think he is lying. I read his book, The Language of God, and he seemed legit to me. His parents were not the religious sort and I think he adopted the title of atheist pretty much as a default position. What he was missing in his life were arguments for atheism. I will say, his arguments for faith were naive and not thought through.

Which is actually the problem, I think. Everyone is born an atheist, but if you don't actually figure out *WHY* you're an atheist, you remain a "default atheist", one without reason, just because you've never bothered to change. Now in this particular case, I'm not going to speculate, but people who never bother to examine religions or think about why rejecting religions, those aren't the most credible atheists, nor ones I'd trust to speak for the "team". They're just like a-Bigfootists who have never heard of Bigfoot.

 

[Marsh]

Everyone is born an atheist...

Well, certainly everyone is born without knowledge of God, but then so are chimps. Are chimps atheists? Are rabbits atheists? It seems to me that what makes me an atheist is the ability to reason and reject belief in the existence of gods. Simply being incapable of reasoning is insufficient in my mind to call someone an atheist. Your thoughts?

... but if you don't actually figure out *WHY* you're an atheist, you remain a "default atheist", one without reason, just because you've never bothered to change.

Agreed, but nonetheless Collins did consider himself an atheist. He just never gave much thought about what that meant to him until he began working with dying patients.

Have you noticed how unwilling devout Christians are to accept that one of their own can possibly give up on belief in God? Once you've had a personal relationship with God it becomes impossible to reject him. I don't know how many times I've heard that refrain.

We do lose people to the other side. Sometimes it's people we thought were too clever to take that step, but it happens. I am not going to emulate the fundamentalists and argue that those who do adopt religion must not have been real atheists.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair’s son, William, converted to Christianity in 1980. His mother certainly didn’t see that one coming, and though I don’t know the details I am sure he was versed in all the appropriate arguments to guard against such a thing happening. Today he is a conservative Baptist minister. It happens.

 

[Cephus]

Well, certainly everyone is born without knowledge of God, but then so are chimps. Are chimps atheists? Are rabbits atheists? It seems to me that what makes me an atheist is the ability to reason and reject belief in the existence of gods. Simply being incapable of reasoning is insufficient in my mind to call someone an atheist. Your thoughts?

The definition of atheist is someone who doesn't believe in gods. Therefore, yes, chimps are atheists, trees are atheists, etc. If you do not have n active belief in a god, you are an atheist by default, period. That's what the word means. Certainly, there are people who have come to atheism by rational means and I think that's more important, but it doesn't stop anyone who doesn't believe in gods from being an atheist.

Agreed, but nonetheless Collins did consider himself an atheist. He just never gave much thought about what that meant to him until he began working with dying patients.

So his conversion was emotional, not intellectual. There are plenty of people who become religious because of emotional reasons, they never bothered to think about things, they just felt their way to religion. I'm not at all impressed with that.

Have you noticed how unwilling devout Christians are to accept that one of their own can possibly give up on belief in God? Once you've had a personal relationship with God it becomes impossible to reject him. I don't know how many times I've heard that refrain.

Of course. I spent many years as a Christian, yet I can't tell you how many times I've seen Christians tell me I never was because, by definition, no Christian could ever leave Christianity. You don't see atheists saying that former atheists were never atheists. That's because we're not irrational.

We do lose people to the other side. Sometimes it's people we thought were too clever to take that step, but it happens. I am not going to emulate the fundamentalists and argue that those who do adopt religion must not have been real atheists.

All the time and I'm fine with that, this isn't about popularity, it's about logic and reason. The one thing they can't do is show that rational, intellectual atheists have left atheism and gone to the Christian side for wholly intellectual and rational reasons. In fact, in those cases where I've taken a look at their reasons, former-atheists-now-theists never have any rational reasons. It's always wholly emotional. That's not impressive.

Madalyn Murray O'Hair’s son, William, converted to Christianity in 1980. His mother certainly didn’t see that one coming, and though I don’t know the details I am sure he was versed in all the appropriate arguments to guard against such a thing happening. Today he is a conservative Baptist minister. It happens.

Sure, just like Fred Phelps' son Nate became an atheist and is now speaking out against fundamentalist Christianity. It happens.

 

[mainliner]

could there be a higher power

yes ... wait no .... errm no its yes .... just wait one minute while i think .. erm ... no ..... damn!! yes .

yes..... help no ... grrr yes and no ....... arhhh!!! help i cant decide but if there is nobody will know until ... erm .... until it .... just wait ..... until .... damn !!!

















maybe

 

[Marsh]

yes ... wait no .... errm no its yes .... just wait one minute while i think .. erm ... no ..... damn!! yes .

yes..... help no ... grrr yes and no ....... arhhh!!! help i cant decide but if there is nobody will know until ... erm .... until it .... just wait ..... until .... damn !!!

LOL! It looks as if there has been a total collapse of the Borg command structure.

maybe

Yup. The collective has suffered a breakdown. A drone is displaying uncertainty. Very un-Borg like.

 

[mainliner]

LOL! It looks as if there has been a total collapse of the Borg command structure.


Yup. The collective has suffered a breakdown. A drone is displaying uncertainty. Very un-Borg like.

lol

 

[Marsh]

The definition of atheist is someone who doesn't believe in gods. Therefore, yes, chimps are atheists, trees are atheists, etc.

Trees are atheists? Sorry, I just don't buy it. Not even when mature could you claim a tree has reached the age of majority. Are you sure you are not just pushing my buttons?

A tree is not a someone. It is a tree. You may have to reword your definition. Rocks don't believe in God either. Are rocks also atheists or are you restricting your definition of atheist to things with a metabolism? I am restricting my definition to those who can at the very least contemplate their navel, so perhaps I will have to include the apes, but I am not quite there yet.

It is too late for me to respond to the remainder of your post this evening. I am sure I will agree with the rest of what you have to say once I've read it.