Do you really have a choice?

[Trailblazer]

I don't believe a god or gods exist so i don't believe that the future is known by anyone or anything.

I believe that God exists and the future is known by God.

I can walk out of our front door for a walk and decide to turn left or right or go straight ahead, free will in action.

I agree, you can do that.

True that there are many factors involved on making a free will decision, we would not be human if for example, we didnt take note of the weather or traffic or availability of whatever product is needed to make an informed decision.

I agree.

Such foreknowledge by your god as suggested in your OP raised many questions on the morality of any such god.

Foreknowledge of God raises no questions on the morality of God because God's foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of the actions of men.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

 

[ChristineM]

I believe that God exists and the future is known by God.

That is your belief.

Foreknowledge of God raises no questions on the morality of God because God's foreknowledge is not the CAUSE of the actions of men.

If your god knows something or someone is going to cause death and destruction and does nothing, that is not moral

Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

You know my stance on this sort of thing

 

[Trailblazer]

If your god knows something or someone is going to cause death and destruction and does nothing, that is not moral

That's your belief.

My belief is that God is not IN ANY WAY responsible for the immoral actions of human beings.

Does nothing? What is God supposed to do, stop all humans from doing immoral things?
Why should God do that? Why shouldn't humans be responsible for their own immoral actions?

I know the usual answer from atheists - God is omnipotent God can do x so God should do x.
That is illogical. According to that line of reasoning humans can prevent death and destruction by choosing to do so so humans should prevent death and destruction. Why should God do what humans can do?

 

[Colt]

I believe that God knows everything that will ever happen to everyone throughout their lives and all that is written on the Tablet of Fate.

I believe that some things that happen to us in this life are predestined (fated) by God, and we have no control over these things.

However, I believe that most of what happens in our lives is chosen by us and then acted upon. God knows what those choices will be because God has perfect foreknowledge, but God’s foreknowledge has no bearing upon what we choose to do, nor does it limit our choices in any way.

I believe that our choices are determined by many factors that we have no control over, so I think that free will is very limited.

Here is what I believe about free will:
I do not believe that humans are just a function of electrical impulses in our brains. I believe we are sentient beings who have a will, and we make choices based upon our desires and preferences, which come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances - everything that goes into making us the person we are. All of these factors are the reasons why we choose one thing or another at any point in time.

How free our choices vary with the situation. Certainly, what we refer to as “free will” has many constraints such as ability and opportunity, but we have volition as otherwise we could not do anything.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have been thinking a lot about this lately because I don’t really think I have much choice concerning how I am living my life. More on this later.
I want to know if others think about this. Are there things that you want to do but feel you cannot do? In other words, do you think you could be making other choices?

Consider that for us time is a series of “instants”. God exists in a timeless infinity. God is everywhere and everwhen. In that way God could know what our free will choices will be. So for me I don’t see life as preordained or fate simply because God knows the end.

 

[ChristineM]

That's your belief.

My belief is that God is not IN ANY WAY responsible for the immoral actions of human beings.

Does nothing? What is God supposed to do, stop all humans from doing immoral things?
Why should God do that? Why shouldn't humans be responsible for their own immoral actions?

I know the usual answer from atheists - God is omnipotent God can do x so God should do x.
That is illogical. According to that line of reasoning humans can prevent death and destruction by choosing to do so so humans should prevent death and destruction. Why should God do what humans can do?

What creator is not responsible for his creation?

Nope, its not illogical, people make all sorts of claims for their God but when something so simple as making something right is beyond the god.

It should prevent unnecessary death because it is a caring, moral god.

 

[Trailblazer]

What creator is not responsible for his creation?

God.

It should prevent unnecessary death because it is a caring, moral god.

 

[ChristineM]

God

What you seem to be saying is that your god only does the good stuff, the bad stuff he shrugs his shoulders at and has nothing to do with it. Figures.

What I've always been curious about is how so many people seem to know the mind of god and it always, ALWAYS, conforms to their own mind. Such a marvelous coincidence.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If your god knows something or someone is going to cause death and destruction and does nothing, that is not moral..

..but G-d gives life, and takes life.
Every single one of us was born, and will taste death.

If G-d had willed it, then not one of us would die.
In a similar way, I hear people saying that G-d is responsible for the death of others,
and so is immoral etc.

G-d is responsible for EVERYONE's death.
If physical life was all that is, it would be a "big deal" .. but it isn't.
This life is as a fleeting moment compared to eternity.

 

[ChristineM]

..but G-d gives life, and takes life.
Every single one of us was born, and will taste death.

If G-d had willed it, then not one of us would die.
In a similar way, I hear people saying that G-d is responsible for the death of others,
and so is immoral etc.

G-d is responsible for EVERYONE's death.
If physical life was all that is, it would be a "big deal" .. but it isn't.
This life is as a fleeting moment compared to eternity.

And all you need now is evidence and your belief would be believable

I am taking about unnecessary deaths.

 

[CG Didymus]

What creator is not responsible for his creation?

Nope, its not illogical, people make all sorts of claims for their God but when something so simple as making something right is beyond the god.

It should prevent unnecessary death because it is a caring, moral god.

Yeah, what is the point? This invisible, all-knowing thing creates people, puts them through tests, and says that those that pass the tests get to be with him in some spirit world. But he knows ahead of time who those people will be?

Then we don't even know if that's what going to happen, because each religion has their own variation of that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..he knows ahead of time who those people will be?

As far as G-d is concerned, what we understand as "ahead of time" means something different.
G-d sees the dimension of time, as we see the dimension of length.
i.e. He sees all

..while for us, time appears to be something that passes.
It is arrogant to think that you are wiser than the Creator of the universe (space-time continuum)

 

[muhammad_isa]

And all you need now is evidence..

Why? I can believe it, so why can't you?
I'm sure it's not just a case of believers being gullible.

 

[Trailblazer]

What you seem to be saying is that your god only does the good stuff, the bad stuff he shrugs his shoulders at and has nothing to do with it. Figures.

Nope, that is not what I am saying. I am only saying that God is not responsible for the 'freely chosen' moral choices of humans.
I am saying that God is not responsible to 'alter' human choices such that humans won't do bad or evil things like rape and murder.

Everything else that happens that was not caused by human choices and actions, things like diseases, accidents and injuries, including things that happen to us owing to a free will choice of other people can be considered our fate.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the Bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our destiny, our fate, for which God is responsible.

I am not saying that God is only responsible for the Good things that happen to us. God is responsible for the Bad things that happen as well, if these things were not freely chosen by humans.

Isaiah 45:7

ESV I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

TLB I form the light and make the dark. I send good times and bad. I, Jehovah, am he who does these things.

NASB The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NCV I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.

NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.

NIV I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm sure it's not just a case of believers being gullible.

That is the case in an atheists' eyes.

 

[Trailblazer]

I am taking about unnecessary deaths.

How do YOU know which deaths are unnecessary?

 

[Trailblazer]

G-d is responsible for EVERYONE's death.

I guess that's true, unless someone freely chooses to take his own life.

If physical life was all that is, it would be a "big deal" .. but it isn't.
This life is as a fleeting moment compared to eternity.

That's true.

“The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality. Set not your affections upon it. Break not the bond that uniteth you with your Creator, and be not of those that have erred and strayed from His ways. Verily I say, the world is like the vapor in a desert, which the thirsty dreameth to be water and striveth after it with all his might, until when he cometh unto it, he findeth it to be mere illusion.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 328-329

 

[muhammad_isa]

I guess that's true, unless someone freely chooses to take his own life..

I mean in the context that G-d has made us that way i.e. mortal
When a person dies, they have no control over it .. their soul returns from whence it came.

 

[Trailblazer]

I mean in the context that G-d has made us that way i.e. mortal
When a person dies, they have no control over it .. their soul returns from whence it came.

So you don't think a person has any control over taking their own life, that he does not freely choose to do so?

 

[CG Didymus]

As far as G-d is concerned, what we understand as "ahead of time" means something different.
G-d sees the dimension of time, as we see the dimension of length.
i.e. He sees all

..while for us, time appears to be something that passes.
It is arrogant to think that you are wiser than the Creator of the universe (space-time continuum)

Yes, if God is what you believe him to be. But different people have had different beliefs about their God. Even in some places in the Bible, it makes it sound like God didn't know what was going to happen.

Either way, if he knows how it going to end, and which people are going to believe and follow his laws, what was the point? It's just too close to him having put the whole thing together from the beginning exactly how he wanted it. Because... doesn't it turn out exactly how he wanted it? I don't think it would have if it was just by chance.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So you don't think a person has any control over taking their own life, that he does not freely choose to do so?

A person might have control over their decision to take their own life.
..but whether they achieve their aim or not is another matter.

It would be better that they were not successful .. and reconsider.
We will all die eventually, and drugs are available to most people .. to ease the pain.
I believe it is the suggestion of satan, to take one's own life .. I do not believe satan's
suggestion that it will solve anything .. more likely make things worse.

One could wake up in hospital, having had emergency surgery to remove your stomach or intestines,
or to die of liver failure etc. etc.
..and what about our loved-ones we leave behind? I'm sure it doesn't make them feel loved,
and is setting a bad example.