Do you really have a choice?

[muhammad_isa]

Either way, if he knows how it going to end, and which people are going to believe and follow his laws, what was the point?

It doesn't mean that .. it doesn't mean that we have no control over our destiny.
What it DOES mean, is that we perceive time differently to G-d.

..and it is natural to feel that knowing the future before it's occurred is either impossible, or
implies that G-d has made it happen and we are just puppets.
..and that is all because of our perception of time .. that it is somehow absolute, and can't be violated.

Einstein demonstrated that this is only a perception .. a very convincing one, maybe .. but time
is NOT absolute, and is relative .. that the nature of the past is no different than the nature of the future.

Bottom line .. we perceive that "the future has not happened yet" .. as if time is somehow a thing that moves .. that is by design .. the test is real.

 

[Trailblazer]

Either way, if he knows how it going to end, and which people are going to believe and follow his laws, what was the point?

The point is that people need to DO what God knows that will DO. God knowing that people will do x does not get x done.

It's just too close to him having put the whole thing together from the beginning exactly how he wanted it. Because... doesn't it turn out exactly how he wanted it?

No, it would not have turned out how God wanted it unless people followed God's teachings and laws.
God knew who would follow His teachings and laws and who would not because God is all-knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

A person might have control over their decision to take their own life.
..but whether they achieve their aim or not is another matter.

You have a point there. If God did not allow them to succeed they would not have succeeded.

It would be better that they were not successful .. and reconsider.
We will all die eventually, and drugs are available to most people .. to ease the pain.

I agree. There is usually something available to ease the pain, physical or psychological.

...and what about our loved-ones we leave behind? I'm sure it doesn't make them feel loved,
and is setting a bad example.

No, I did not feel loved when my late husband starved himself to death, but apparently he did not care how I felt.

 

[ChristineM]

Nope, that is not what I am saying. I am only saying that God is not responsible for the 'freely chosen' moral choices of humans.
I am saying that God is not responsible to 'alter' human choices such that humans won't do bad or evil things like rape and murder.

Everything else that happens that was not caused by human choices and actions, things like diseases, accidents and injuries, including things that happen to us owing to a free will choice of other people can be considered our fate.

“Some things are subject to the free will of man, such as justice, equity, tyranny and injustice, in other words, good and evil actions; it is evident and clear that these actions are, for the most part, left to the will of man. But there are certain things to which man is forced and compelled, such as sleep, death, sickness, decline of power, injuries and misfortunes; these are not subject to the will of man, and he is not responsible for them, for he is compelled to endure them. But in the choice of good and bad actions he is free, and he commits them according to his own will.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 248

Man is compelled to endure the Bad things that happen because God set it up that way since we live in a material world where some of the Bad things happen are beyond our control. Some of these Bad things are caused by the free will decisions of other people and some of them are simply accidents, misfortunes and diseases. These are our destiny, our fate, for which God is responsible.

I am not saying that God is only responsible for the Good things that happen to us. God is responsible for the Bad things that happen as well, if these things were not freely chosen by humans.

Isaiah 45:7

ESV I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the Lord, who does all these things.

TLB I form the light and make the dark. I send good times and bad. I, Jehovah, am he who does these things.

NASB The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the Lord who does all these things.

NCV I made the light and the darkness. I bring peace, and I cause troubles. I, the Lord, do all these things.

NIRV I cause light to shine. I also create darkness. I bring good times. I also create hard times. I do all these things. I am the Lord.

NIV I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the Lord, do all these things.

Lousy designer if he doesn't support his product.

 

[ChristineM]

How do YOU know which deaths are unnecessary?

Take a look at the Ukraine and Gaza

 

[1213]

You are free to want whatever you want

Ok, thank you, I think that means free will.

but you are not free to do whatever you want to so. What you are able to do is constrained.

I agree with that. And I think that means I am not omnipotent. But, I don't think that means I can't want freely.

 

[CG Didymus]

Lousy designer if he doesn't support his product.

Maybe in the Baha'i Faith, but in the Bible, God is always intervening. The Hebrews would have all been killed by the Egyptians if God didn't part the seas. But then God took them on a wild goose chase through the desert for 40 years until all the people that pissed him off died.

He gives his support when they do what he likes, and he takes it away when they disobey him, and he wants to punish them.

The Baha'i response to that? Probably that the stories are fictional. They aren't literally true. Well then, just great. The supposed "Word of God" can't be trusted. Yet, when it comes to God and free will and him being "all-knowing", that stuff is true? For me, maybe... maybe not. It's just the beliefs of some people in some religions. A belief they can't prove one way or another.

 

[muhammad_isa]

He gives his support when they do what he likes, and he takes it away when they disobey him..

Right .. in the same way that a parent is angry with their child if they disobey them .. why?
..because they can see that certain actions have undesirable consequences, and they wish their child to avoid it.

G-d does not have to send down doom & destruction .. we are quite capable of bringing it upon ourselves.

 

[Trailblazer]

Lousy designer if he doesn't support his product.

God does support His product every time He sends a Messenger.

 

[Trailblazer]

Take a look at the Ukraine and Gaza

Not God's fault, man's fault.

 

[Spice]

Using your post, CG, but my response is directed to thread participants in general........

Maybe in the Baha'i Faith, but in the Bible, God is always intervening. The Hebrews would have all been killed by the Egyptians if God didn't part the seas.

And it was their free will choice to trust the parted seas and cross, or to stay on shore and face the approaching chariots.

But then God took them on a wild goose chase through the desert for 40 years until all the people that pissed him off died.

And it was their free will choice to continue wandering, or to quit and make a home in a land of their choosing.

He gives his support when they do what he likes, and he takes it away when they disobey him, and he wants to punish them.

The options are not usually of humankind's making, at least not fully, but selecting from those options and the attached consequences are.

The Baha'i response to that? Probably that the stories are fictional. They aren't literally true. Well then, just great. The supposed "Word of God" can't be trusted. Yet, when it comes to God and free will and him being "all-knowing", that stuff is true? For me, maybe... maybe not. It's just the beliefs of some people in some religions. A belief they can't prove one way or another.

Make believe stories or not, a hands-on God, or not, we have choices that appear before us and have the freedom to chose which option we select. With that comes consequences. If the consequences are beneficial, feel blessed and learn from your choice. If those consequences are detrimental, feel experienced and learn from your choice. In both instances, don't waste your brain function on blame; thank God, or the Universe, or pure luck if you wish, but move on to the next set of options.

Of course, you also have the freedom to do nothing, to blame everyone, to appreciate zilch. THAT'S free will.

 

[ChristineM]

God does support His product every time He sends a Messenger.

You know my thoughts on that, i can't be bothered arguing it agaibt

 

[ChristineM]

Not God's fault, man's fault.

Ok, excuse the designer for his mistakes and lay the blame on the product of that design

 

[danieldemol]

Of course, you also have the freedom to do nothing, to blame everyone, to appreciate zilch. THAT'S free will.

Have you ever met anyone that did nothing, blamed everyone and appreciated zilch?

I have known people like that who were suffering from depression, so it strikes me as ignorance of mental health issues that somone wants to call it a free choice when such an outlook is effected by factors such as;

• genetic vulnerability
• severe life stressors
• some medications, drugs and alcohol
• medical conditions
  I believe we don't choose genetic vulnerability, severe life stressors and medical conditions.

 

[Spice]

Have you ever met anyone that did nothing, blamed everyone and appreciated zilch?

Yep -- two that had this view on the extreme side

I have known people like that who were suffering from depression, so it strikes me as ignorance of mental health issues that somone wants to call it a free choice

I know from direct experience. And psychiatrist are the first to question why you chose what you chose.

when such an outlook is effected by factors such as;

• genetic vulnerability
• severe life stressors
• some medications, drugs and alcohol
• medical conditions
  I believe we don't choose genetic vulnerability, severe life stressors and medical conditions.

There are still options. I "know"

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok, excuse the designer for his mistakes and lay the blame on the product of that design

The designer did not make any mistakes. Humans commit evil acts for one reason and one reason alone.... because they choose to do so.

 

[ChristineM]

The designer did not make any mistakes. Humans commit evil acts for one reason and one reason alone.... because they choose to do so.

In your opinion.

 

[muhammad_isa]

In your opinion.

..and in my opinion.
That is not to say, that decisions NOT to commit evil are easy.
Indeed, they often aren't .. survival often becomes more difficult when taking the moral high ground.

..and of course, there are also exceptions as to who are responsible for their actions.

 

[ChristineM]

..and in my opinion.
That is not to say, that decisions NOT to commit evil are easy.
Indeed, they often aren't .. survival often becomes more difficult when taking the moral high ground.

..and of course, there are also exceptions as to who are responsible for their actions.

And who designed the human capable of committing evil?

 

[CG Didymus]

You know my thoughts on that, i can't be bothered arguing it agaibt

The Baha'i concept of "manifestations/messengers" is not "product" support. The "user" manuals, the Scriptures, each tell us to believe and do things differently. But then, until the Baha'is guy, the "user" manual was not written by the supposed "messenger" anyway.

And too many people get into a sect of a religion that even most of the believers in that religion don't agree with. And to that Baha'is, of course, blame people for mucking up the religion. But it all goes back to the "user" manuals... Follow it too literally, and the religion doesn't it. It becomes too extreme. Take it too symbolically or too loosely, and people make it say whatever they want it to say and get off into all kinds of weird cults.

And because of the bad side of religious beliefs, people have had to make laws against some religious practices. Making it so it is difficult for a person to think that they are free to do or believe as they wish. But then religion, especially those like the Baha'i Faith, that have a lot of laws, rules and moral codes, makes it so a believer can't think or do a lot of things... without going against "God". And God will punish evil doers they say. So, there is a cost for "free will". A believer can't do what they want without paying a high cost.

But this thing about God not being responsible and people having free will is important to the believers in some religions. So, over and over again a new thread on some kind of variation of these things keeps popping up.