Do You Support Forgiving $10,000 Of Student Loan Debt?

[PureX]

So you want me to pay for my education, my kids education and someone else education, you also want me to pay for my cars and someone else's cars as well.

At some point, don't you think this is immoral?

If you have that much money, you should be happy to be able to share some of it with those who don't. After all, they work just as hard as you do, are just as valuable to society as you and your kids are, and everyone benefits from from having a better educated populace, including you and your kids.

Also, you aren't, "paying for someone else's education". You're just paying your taxes the same as you always have, and as everyone else is. Its just that some of that money will go to help create a better educated public. In the same way we need to invest in our national infrastructure, we need to invest in educating our people.

Also, YOUR kids get the same break as everyone else's kids do. So why all this selfish animosity?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

We don't NEED dentistry, either, but life is sure a lot better with it than without it for the vast majority of people.

Sure this is why I pay for dental care for myself and my family. This is also the reason I paid for my college education and am paying for the college education for my kids. It is also better to have a home than be homeless for most, that s why I pay for my home as well. Why is college education different based on your logic? Just because something is better for us does not mean the government needs to pay for it.

That's the lack of education. Which is why we need to make it available to all.

It is available to all. How is this not available to all? Anyone can go to college if they want to. Or do you not think poor people go to college?

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

If you have that much money, you should be happy to be able to share some of it with those who don't. After all, they work just as hard as you do, are just as valuable to society as you and your kids are, and everyone benefits from from having a better educated populace, including you and your kids.

You have no idea how much money I have. I am far from rich. I am not paying full tuition either, there are plenty of scholarships out there to get. Like I said anyone can afford a community college for two years if they really wanted to without loans.

even if I was rich that doe snot mean you get to decide if I want to share my money with others. What money I do have I would rather give to organizations feeding people or giving them helathcare they need etc. Not giving my money to someone else to pay for their college.

Also, you aren't, "paying for someone else's education". You're just paying your taxes the same as you always have, and as everyone else is. Its just that some of that money will go to help create a better educated public. In the same way we need to invest in our national infrastructure, we need to invest in educating our people.

So no one pays for the education it just poofs into existence? The American taxpayer will have to pay for this somewhere down the line. The debt just does not disappear.

Also, YOUR kids get the same break as everyone else's kids do. So why all this selfish animosity?

Because I have principles. Just because I could benefit from this policy does not mean I automatically agree with it. It is bad for the country overall. Call me selfish all you want, it is just an ad hom and does nothing to further your case. I give money to people that need it, not to people that don't.

 

[Watchmen]

Some of us are using that to fill critical needs in society, like in the medical field. That's not a cheap field of study.
Why? Many if those tending to you at the doctors office or hospital are benefiting from this debt cancellation, especially those at the lower tiers of care who may even still be in school.

Hey, carpenter, electrician, plumber, and construction worker! You’re so lucky! You get to payoff the student loan debt I voluntarily took on because you MIGHT need my services as an x-ray technician or nurse someday! Isn’t that a great deal for you! You, the person who chose NOT to go into debt for your education and/or profession!


How elitist.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Hey, carpenter, electrician, plumber, and construction worker! You’re so lucky! You get to payoff the student loan debt I voluntarily took on because you MIGHT need my services as an x-ray technician or nurse someday! Isn’t that a great deal for you! You, the person who chose NOT to go into debt for your education and/or profession!


How elitist.

Yes, I'm helping to pay off that debt. The only difference I'm not stingy, greedy, or so selfish to not see how this benefits society as a whole. I don't care that my taxes go to this. Hell, I'm infinitely rather prefer they go to this than bombs.
Elitist? No, I have priorities that revolve around humanitarian concerns rather than keep your hands off of my stack.

 

[Watchmen]

Yes, I'm helping to pay off that debt. The only difference I'm not stingy, greedy, or so selfish to not see how this benefits society as a whole. I don't care that my taxes go to this. Hell, I'm infinitely rather prefer they go to this than bombs.
Elitist? No, I have priorities that revolve around humanitarian concerns rather than keep your hands off of my stack.

Oh. So the plumbers, carpenters, and electricians and other trades people are stingy, greedy, and selfish now. Got it.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Oh. So the plumbers, carpenters, and electricians and other trades people are stingy, greedy, and selfish now. Got it.

I'm calling those complaining and saying "but me" are stingy, greedy, and selfish, because, yes, it is getting more than to the point of holding society back as a whole when it can't compete with other First World Countries.

 

[Watchmen]

I'm calling those complaining and saying "but me" are stingy, greedy, and selfish, because, yes, it is getting more than to the point of holding society back as a whole when it can't compete with other First World Countries.

Right. How dare those tradesmen complain about paying for you. So selfish they are!

 

[PureX]

You have no idea how much money I have. I am far from rich. I am not paying full tuition either, there are plenty of scholarships out there to get. Like I said anyone can afford a community college for two years if they really wanted to without loans.

Ah, the old "anyone can" lie. We Americans love that one, and tell it to ourselves constantly. We build a giant wall around those "other" people that only one in a hundred of them will ever be able to climb over and then when one of the does, we tell ourselves that "anyone of them COULD have!". We are born into all kinds of opportunities and privileges and then when we succeed we say, "see, if I could do it anyone could!". But the fact that not everyone does is proof that we are just lying to ourselves and each other about it so we don't have to acknowledge that we've locked them out of the system so we could keep all the goodies for ourselves. And that we hate them for existing and reminding us that we are a bunch of selfish liars.

even if I was rich that doe snot mean you get to decide if I want to share my money with others.

It's not "your money". You can't get rich without the help and cooperation of everyone else around you. And you can't 'own' a damn thing without the agreement of everyone else around you. So no, you don't get to decide and pretend that you did it all by yourself and that you "own" whatever you think you deserve to own. We all get a say in that, because we all make it possible. Like it or not you are a member of a human collective, and your well being depends on the cooperation and well being of that collective. So they get a say in how that collective operates, and how it shares it's collective wealth.

What money I do have I would rather give to organizations feeding people or giving them helathcare they need etc. Not giving my money to someone else to pay for their college.

Well, it's not all about what you would rather do. Time to grow up and face that fact. "You" are also a "we".

 

[Heyo]

Ah, the old "anyone can" lie. We Americans love that one, and tell it to ourselves constantly.

Volker Pispers answered that thusly:
"Capitalism is like the lottery: anyone can win - but not everybody."

 

[metis]

The debt just does not disappear.

Nor does it have to.

We have had federal debt since the 1930's, and yet we are still the world's #1 economic power.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Right. How dare those tradesmen complain about paying for you. So selfish they are!

Will the tax bills make you feel any better that the IRS treats such things as taxable?
Did you miss I'm still paying myself one way or another? I'm still paying taxes, and my next tax bill will likely be the largest I'll ever have (I suspect that will be true of many people).
And guess what? This is society. It's a collective effort where we all give and take. No, not everyone will need a certain thing, but someone will and those who don't need this will need that. We prosper more when society as a whole is elevated.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

I hope this poor attempt at rationalization gives you comfort. You are taking other people’s money for your own selfish ends. Don’t be deceived. You will answer for this somehow, someway, sometime.

Exodus 20:17

Your use of this Biblical verse seems inappropriate. "Coveting" represents a yearning or desire, whereas most college debt is accrued out of necessity.

 

[Guitar's Cry]

Once again President Biden has shown a total disregard for the middle class and tax payers. He and his fellow Democrats take money from hard working Americans without compunction or slightest care or compassion. A pox on them!

Tax the rich. Their children get in college without a financial care in the world. I remember these students: they didn't work, had all new books, the best clothes, the best sporting equipment (which they had time to do because they didn't need to work), and the best cars.

Meanwhile, I had to balance working and academics while budgeting for basic needs and I still had to take out loans alongside scholarships and grants.

Trying to help the low and middle classes receive an education and opportunities that arise from it is hardly showing a disregard for them.

 

[Watchmen]

Will the tax bills make you feel any better that the IRS treats such things as taxable?
Did you miss I'm still paying myself one way or another? I'm still paying taxes, and my next tax bill will likely be the largest I'll ever have (I suspect that will be true of many people).
And guess what? This is society. It's a collective effort where we all give and take. No, not everyone will need a certain thing, but someone will and those who don't need this will need that. We prosper more when society as a whole is elevated.

I’m sure the tradesmen feel very elevated by the opportunity to pay for all those who took out student loans.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Ah, the old "anyone can" lie. We Americans love that one, and tell it to ourselves constantly. We build a giant wall around those "other" people that only one in a hundred of them will ever be able to climb over and then when one of the does, we tell ourselves that "anyone of them COULD have!". We are born into all kinds of opportunities and privileges and then when we succeed we say, "see, if I could do it anyone could!". But the fact that not everyone does is proof that we are just lying to ourselves and each other about it so we don't have to acknowledge that we've locked them out of the system so we could keep all the goodies for ourselves. And that we hate them for existing and reminding us that we are a bunch of selfish liars.

I never said this.

It's not "your money". You can't get rich without the help and cooperation of everyone else around you. And you can't 'own' a damn thing without the agreement of everyone else around you. So no, you don't get to decide and pretend that you did it all by yourself and that you "own" whatever you think you deserve to own. We all get a say in that, because we all make it possible. Like it or not you are a member of a human collective, and your well being depends on the cooperation and well being of that collective. So they get a say in how that collective operates, and how it shares it's collective wealth.

How much of what I have achieved is due to me and how much is due to the "collective"?

Taxes I pay:
Gasoline tax, State $0.20/gallon mostly for transportation projects and road maintenance, $0.184/gal federal tax.
Property tax 2.74% of appraised value: Pay for schools, community college, transportation projects, municipal projects.
Local sales tax 8.25%: Various uses including education, police, transportation etc.
Federal income tax: A lot of crap.
Many indirect taxes such as purchasing alcohol and car registration etc.
I am sure there are more. I think most Americans pay an average of >20% of their income on taxes every year. I think that is enough to do with what we need government to do.

I have no problem paying taxes and I agree that we all theoretically have a say in what taxes we have. Do I owe the government more money than the taxes I pay? But of course whatever money I have is my money. Not yours or the governments to do with whatever they want. You do not get a say in what I own as you stated, this is demonstrably false.

Well, it's not all about what you would rather do. Time to grow up and face that fact. "You" are also a "we".

More ad homs huh. I don't think you realize that people are not equal and do not have the same abilities or capabilities or desires. Not everyone will achieve the same things in their life. We need to provide an equal and fair starting pint as best we can. So everyone has the opportunity to succeed as they see fit. Some will and some won't. Forcing equal outcomes is tyranny and leads to a society that will be worse off for everyone.

 

[PureX]

How much of what I have achieved is due to me and how much is due to the "collective"?

What do you really think you would achieve without them? There is a reason humans have ALWAYS lived in cooperative collectives. It's because very few of us could survive for long without them. Or would even want to.

Taxes I pay:... I think most Americans pay an average of >20% of their income on taxes every year. I think that is enough to do with what we need government to do.

It's not up to you. Or me. It's up to all of us collectively to oversee where our elected officials are spending the money we give them. And yet at the same time we have to understand that they are tasked with looking out for society as a whole. And that means they will need to spend our tax dollars on things that don't directly benefit you or me. We are living in a very large, very complicated society, now. It gives us great advantages, but it also requires a great deal of oversight. And a lot of people can fall through the cracks. No one's a lone ranger out on the prairie, anymore. Those days are over. It's time to face a world with 7 billion humans on it. There just isn't the room and resources for the kind of greed and selfishness that we've been accustomed to until now. A lot of Americans are having a lot of trouble facing that. They grew up on Hollywood fantasies where the hero gets to live as he pleases. And they grew up in communities where white men ruled, and gave themselves every advantage, and excluded whomever they wanted with impunity. But that's not the reality we live in, now. And if we want to live in THIS reality successfully, we're going to have to learn how to share both the goods and the opportunities. And how to tolerate our differences. And how to NOT be the kings of our own destinies, anymore.

Americans are trying to claw their way back to a past that is gone (if it ever even existed). And it's only making everything worse. It's time to let go of the selfish fantasies pretending to be "freedom" and start cooperating on implementing some new solutions.

I have no problem paying taxes and I agree that we all theoretically have a say in what taxes we have. Do I owe the government more money than the taxes I pay? But of course whatever money I have is my money. Not yours or the governments to do with whatever they want. You do not get a say in what I own as you stated, this is demonstrably false.

Obviously, given the subject of this discussion, it IS true. Your society is going to determine what is yours and what isn't. And you can cry and whine about it til the cows sing, but that's the way it is. An the way is has to be. And you'd better hope that it remains your society that's deciding this, and not some criminal despot. Because they never stop trying to gain that power. And they are very happy to use your selfishness and discontentment to gain that end.

I don't think you realize that people are not equal and do not have the same abilities or capabilities or desires. Not everyone will achieve the same things in their life. We need to provide an equal and fair starting pint as best we can.

Do you think we are doing that??? I don't think you understand that when we neglect and abuse huge sections of the population as we are doing we have already turned against each other and have created an environment that's perfect for the invasion of those always present criminal despots. And they want it ALL, brother. And they'll do whatever it takes to get it all.

So everyone has the opportunity to succeed as they see fit.

On what planet? Because it's sure not on this one.

 

[Clizby Wampuscat]

Nor does it have to.

We have had federal debt since the 1930's, and yet we are still the world's #1 economic power.

Ok, no worries. Just because we have been ok with debt does not mean it will cause issues later. Do you think there is a maximum amount of debt we should have?

$30+ trillion dollars in debt slows income growth, increases interest payments, increases interest rates, reduces ability to combat any future crisis, increases tax burden on future generations. Interest payment are about to be more than what we spend on Medicaid and will be more than defense spending in 2025 and will be the largest expenditure by 2050. What if your biggest bill was interest you have on loans? Could you survive very long? What more good can we do if we had that money to spend on people and not interest payments? You have bought a lie, the debt is already hurting you.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

I’m sure the tradesmen feel very elevated by the opportunity to pay for all those who took out student loans.

It's called a society, and America looks awful, terrible and embarrassing in many areas when compared to First World counterparts. American exceptionalism is dead. We need to do things to actually bring America up to par with the rest of the world in order just to say it looks good again.
Education is one of the best ways do to this, and crippling debt defeats the point of getting a higher education in the first place. If anything, y'all should be thanking college grads who took on loans so America doesn't have to import even more brain power. Otherwise those who are born here would rarely fill the positions that require advanced education/huge chunk of debt. That "speak English/English only" crowd should especially really love because without us they'd get far fewer healthcare practitioners who speak it as a native language.
It would look bad, especially bad, if we start having to largely import public school teachers because everyone here took your advice and didn't take on that debt. Just imagine the tourist slogan:
Welcome to America; Home of the obscene wealth gaps and land of the dumb where we're mostly too stupid to even educate our own children."

 

[Watchmen]

It's called a society, and America looks awful, terrible and embarrassing in many areas when compared to First World counterparts. American exceptionalism is dead. We need to do things to actually bring America up to par with the rest of the world in order just to say it looks good again.
Education is one of the best ways do to this, and crippling debt defeats the point of getting a higher education in the first place. If anything, y'all should be thanking college grads who took on loans so America doesn't have to import even more brain power. Otherwise those who are born here would rarely fill the positions that require advanced education/huge chunk of debt. That "speak English/English only" crowd should especially really love because without us they'd get far fewer healthcare practitioners who speak it as a native language.
It would look bad, especially bad, if we start having to largely import public school teachers because everyone here took your advice and didn't take on that debt. Just imagine the tourist slogan:
Welcome to America; Home of the obscene wealth gaps and land of the dumb where we're mostly too stupid to even educate our own children."

The tradesmen thank you for your service and for making America smart. Do you have any other debts they can pay for you?

For the record, I’m not a tradesman and I paid off all my student loans myself. Every. Single. Penny. Zero government help. Zero taking from others.