Do you think a mystical experience has any value?

[roger1440]

I'll rephrase the question. Can a mystical experience change a person's outlook on life? If so, please explain.

General Characteristics of Mystical Experience


Mystical experiences are marked by all or some of the following feelings/insights.

• A sense of unity or totality
• A sense of timelessness
• A sense of having encountered ultimate reality
• A sense of sacredness
• A sense that one can not adequately describe the richness of this experience

 

[Storm]

I'll rephrase the question. Can a mystical experience change a person's outlook on life?

It certainly did mine. That said the details are profoundly personal, and I have no inclination to share them with you.

That seems to be my answer to every question you post... I'm beginning to suspect you do it deliberately!

 

[roger1440]

That seems to be my answer to every question you post... I'm beginning to suspect you do it deliberately!

I only control the question not the answer.

 

[Storm]

I was teasing.

 

[Quagmire]

I'll rephrase the question. Can a mystical experience change a person's outlook on life? If so, please explain.

General Characteristics of Mystical Experience


Mystical experiences are marked by all or some of the following feelings/insights.

• A sense of unity or totality
• A sense of timelessness
• A sense of having encountered ultimate reality
• A sense of sacredness
• A sense that one can not adequately describe the richness of this experience

I would say: a sense of having glimpsed a deeper reality rather than "having encountered the ultimate reality". I suspect that there is no ultimate reality, ie., that there's always another layer, no matter how deeply you go.

As far as changing a persons life, IMO all a mystical experience is is getting a peak behind the curtain that we all usually walk through life looking through, or trying to look through (or trying not to. ).

I think, once someone gets a good look at how many of their perceptions are actually assumptions, something about themselves and/or their lives is bound to change.

Put another way, we humans generally walk around with a pretty thick cow patty covering our eyes most of the time. When something wipes it away for a moment (usually after a good rain storm) things look a lot different.

For one thing, you realize it actually is a cow patty (and you thought it was a pair of binoculars. )

 

[Sylvan]

Roger 1440- May I suggest a long fast? It may not result in a mystical experience but at least you might start to see the forest from the trees.

A sense that one can not adequately describe the richness of this experience

This is important to grasp.

 

[Vinayaka]

Yes. No explanation possible.

 

[roger1440]

It certainly did mine. That said the details are profoundly personal, and I have no inclination to share them with you.

It's interesting to note what Storm writes closely parallels what the Apostle Paul wrote nearly 2000 years ago

I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. (2 Corinthians 12:1-4)

 

[Sylvan]

Who is the man Paul is describing in that passage? And as a Christian what is your understanding of the "third heaven"?

Thinking about the difference between being 'permitted to tell' and for that 'telling' to be inexpressible in terms of language is a meditation in itself.
The difference seems quite obvious until one ponder the nature of the 'voice' of 'God'.
And what the effect of 'hearing' that 'voice' might have on one's consciousness.
And then noticing how that One has been as one in one's consciousness all along. Unnoticed.

 

[roger1440]

1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. (2 Corinthians 12:1-4) New International Version (NIV)

Paul is writing about himself in the third person. The third heaven is where god dwells. The ancient Jews had several ways to describe the heavens. One way was to divide it into three parts. The first heaven is where the birds and clouds can be found. The second heaven is where thecelestial bodies can be found. The third heaven is where God can be found. Paul did not know “whether in the body or apart from the body” because he was not aware of his body. It’s not that his body was gone. It’s just that he didn’t pay any attention to his body. The word paradise can also be found in the gospel of Luke.

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:40-43) New International Version (NIV)
Jesus is telling the criminal that the criminal will be in the presence of God because he believed Jesus. Paradise is synonymous with the Garden of Eden. According to the book of Genesis God was with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden or Paradise.
Paul’s description of his experience is very similar to a mystical experience. It is more than coincidental. Common among descriptions of mystical experiences is being in the presence of the divine. Another description is a sense of connectivity with all things. This would explain why Paul did not know “whether in the body or apart from the body”. Another similarity is the inability to articulate the experience.

 

[Storm]

himself

Assuming accurate translation, I would say that there is evidence Paul did NOT have such an experience. That said, I doubt the accuracy.

 

[roger1440]

Heaven, Place of Reward - 2 Corinthians 12:2-4

The contextual evidence strongly suggests that the man Paul knew was none other than Paul himself. Consider the evidence:

1. The Apostle says, "And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure." (vs. 7). If the visions and revelations which occupy the preceding verses were those of the man Paul knew (and not Paul himself) why should the Apostle be chastened lest he be exalted above measure? Surely the concern ought to be for the recipient of the visions and revelations.
2. The Apostle Paul claims: "I am become a fool in glorying; ye have compelled me: for I ought to have been commended of you: for in nothing am I behind the very chiefest apostles, though I be nothing." (vs 11). Such a comment is entirely appropriate if the subject of the glorying (vs. 1) has been Paul. It is difficult to see how such a comment follows from a consideration of the glory of a person other than Paul.

 

[roger1440]

1I must go on boasting. Although there is nothing to be gained, I will go on to visions and revelations from the Lord. 2 I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not know—God knows. 3 And I know that this man—whether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows— 4 was caught up to paradise and heard inexpressible things, things that no one is permitted to tell. (2 Corinthians 12:1-4) New International Version (NIV)

Paul is writing about himself in the third person. The third heaven is where god dwells. The ancient Jews had several ways to describe the heavens. One way was to divide it into three parts. The first heaven is where the birds and clouds can be found. The second heaven is where thecelestial bodies can be found. The third heaven is where God can be found. Paul did not know “whether in the body or apart from the body” because he was not aware of his body. It’s not that his body was gone. It’s just that he didn’t pay any attention to his body. The word paradise can also be found in the gospel of Luke.

40 But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? 41 We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” 43 Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:40-43) New International Version (NIV)
Jesus is telling the criminal that the criminal will be in the presence of God because he believed Jesus. Paradise is synonymous with the Garden of Eden. According to the book of Genesis God was with Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden or Paradise.
Paul’s description of his experience is very similar to a mystical experience. It is more than coincidental. Common among descriptions of mystical experiences is being in the presence of the divine. Another description is a sense of connectivity with all things. This would explain why Paul did not know “whether in the body or apart from the body”. Another similarity is the inability to articulate the experience.

 

[Quintessence]

Yes, mystical experiences change you. If you've had them, it is extremely difficult to be any kind of atheist. Beyond that, the specific changes depend significantly on the nature of the experience and the worldview of the experiencer. A Christian will interpret the experience through Christian theology, a Pagan through polytheistic theology, etc. As a contemporary Pagan, I'm practically in the business of mystical experiences and direct connection with the gods. As with Storm, the details are often very personal and I'm not up for sharing them. Honestly, many of them cannot be described anyway and my feeble attempt to do so would ruin it.

 

[Sylvan]

Yeah, I still think Paul was talking about someone else and not himself.
You can think whatever you like though.

 

[Sylvan]

Surely the concern ought to be for the recipient of the visions and revelations.

Or, much as I just mentioned, the concern should be for the teller. One who speaks of them far and wide.

 

[DreadFish]

Yes, but it depends on how one approaches their experience. I have shared an experience with a few people, but I did it to demonstrate something. I think that it sometimes during a discussion to talk to a person who has had a certain experience.

 

[roger1440]

A mystical experience would have value depending on the experiencer’s values before the experience had taken place. Some people are so firmly rooted in the material world that they see little or no value in spiritual or religious endeavors. Since a mystical experience cannot be eaten, worn or sold it would have no value to these types of people. The second type of person is those who are marginally spiritual or religious. These types of people go through the motions of being spiritual or religious. They attend services, know the doctrine of their beliefs and have an outward show. Since they are not firmly rooted in their own beliefs they are easily swayed. It would take very little effort to uproot them. These people are very susceptible to religious or spiritual arrogance. Some of them who have had a mystical experience may believe they are better than those who haven’t had a mystical experience. The third type of person is firmly rooted in religious or spiritual matters. To these people the mystical experience serves to nourish what has already been planted. I would like to point out that there are shades of gray between all these types of people.

 

[dyanaprajna2011]

I think mystical experience has great value for the one experiencing it, and can be, and oftentimes is, quite life changing. With that said, they're purely subjective experiences, and should only have value for the one experiencing them, except maybe indirectly as the experiencer takes his newfound wisdom and puts it in practice, and in that way shares it with the world around him.

 

[roger1440]

and in that way shares it with the world around him.

After the experience the world around them is much closer then they had originally thought