Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
Can you read at all, those laws would not justify murder. If anything they say murder is wrong.Booyah!
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Does a Soldier in War Break the 6th Commandment?
- Thread starter Jeremiahcp
- Start date
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
Here is another question. Say you have some that struck another and killed him. So you strike him and kill him does that mean someone now needs to kill you? Also do these laws apply to women?
You didn't read... I said God is sanctioning capital punishment after pre-meditated murder.
Tumah
Veteran Member
I came into this discussion at the point you asked about the difference between murder and killing:
Murder is illegal killing.
So war is always legal killing?
That would depend on whose legal code you're using. I'd guess that the aggressor is usually seen as killing illegally by the defender's legal code, but is legal in the aggressor's code.
So in other words ignore the will of God and let people make the call. Which btw, I agree with.
I have no idea what you're talking about.
Really? It is very simple. If you call it murder and you decide murder is unlawful killing based on human laws, then that is not a moral standard set by God, that is a moral standard set by humans, if humans are deciding what is and what is not murder. In fact calling it murder seems like a way to cheat the commandment to justify killing. Which while fooling the masses will not fool God.
No, that's totally wrong. This has nothing to do with what a country decides on it's own, this is a single law within the body of the Torah's legal code which includes provisions for legal and illegal killing. I have no idea why you are applying this to secular law.
At your second response to me, you introduced G-d into the equation but did not explain how you were making the leap. When I questioned it, you gave an explanation in which you linked the 6th commandment with secular law for some reason. Then I pointed out that no such link exists, these are two separate legal codes.
I do not see any backpedaling.
In Num. 35 we're commanded to kill a murderer and in Num. 31 we were commanded to go to war against the Midianites. Those are two examples of legal murder under the Torah's legal code, which makes it not murder but killing.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
They justify murder by murder. They are saying, dont do this or you will be killed. It is a indirect form of advocating murder to punish the sinner. It says "murder is right under these pretenses." The justification is murder is okay to one who sins but not to one who has not.
According to scripture, justified murder does not break a commandment. Unjustified does.
My question is how justified murder make killing someone right and killing, say, a child is somehow wrong. How do you justify a murder when the victim is not here to speak for hinself. Cant bring back the living.
Also, anything written in the bible is said to be divine. Maybe be more specific in what you mean by divine.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
You said,
depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
"They justify murder by murder. "
What was quoted to me didn't actually use the term murder. You are adding your own personal interpretation on it. Which I am fine with btw, but is not 100% divine morality.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Edit.
They are justifying killing with killing.
I see no different when life is involved.
They are justifying taking a life of a sinner because that sinner took a life as well.
Exodus 21:12 ESV
“Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death.
Genesis 9:6 ESV
“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image
The justification is "because god says so" his method of justification "killing."
When a human does it without god's permission, its murder.
When god gives permission, they use killing.
That is why biblical and societal laws are separate.
US society convicts people who murder others. They have some form of consequence. Bible consequence only happens outside of god's command.
Even people who act in self defense have legal consequences in the US. They are forgiven by intent "Not" the crime itself.
They are justifying killing with killing.
I see no different when life is involved.
They are justifying taking a life of a sinner because that sinner took a life as well.
Exodus 21:12 ESV
“Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death.
Genesis 9:6 ESV
“Whoever sheds the blood of man, by man shall his blood be shed, for God made man in his own image
The justification is "because god says so" his method of justification "killing."
When a human does it without god's permission, its murder.
When god gives permission, they use killing.
That is why biblical and societal laws are separate.
US society convicts people who murder others. They have some form of consequence. Bible consequence only happens outside of god's command.
Even people who act in self defense have legal consequences in the US. They are forgiven by intent "Not" the crime itself.
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Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
If we take this . . .
Exodus 21:12 ESV
“Whoever strikes a man so that he dies shall be put to death."
. . . . as it is written then we should go out and kill anyone who has ever killed in a war then someone would need to kill us and then someone would need to kill them and then someone would need to kill . . . . .
And at any rate, none of this address the main question of the thread.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
Also I need direct quotes from God please. You are not God's lawyer, you don't speak for him.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
I really don't think some of you are making this connect. It is going to come down to human interpretation no matter how you try to slice it, it will always be humans deciding when it is OK to kill and not God, as every bit of scripture, every tiny bit must, has to, pass through human interpretation.
It is correct if we take it out of context of the surrounding verses, as you have done.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
First off it was quoted to me, I am not the one that took it out of context, but by all means put in proper context and verse then watch me play the same game over and over and over and over. How can you not see the pattern?
Scott C.
Just one guy
A soldier in war is not breaking the commandment "Thou shalt not kill". The same God who gave this commandment through Moses, also commanded the death penalty for the children of Israel who violated certain commandments. While the Law of Moses death penalty is no longer in effect, it does demonstrate that "Thou shalt not kill" does not mean that we should never take a life under any circumstances.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
It so nice that you have an opinion, but I want to see the actual laws as given by God, otherwise it is just people deciding when it is OK to kill and not God.
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
So much for divine morality, what a joke of a concept.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Yes?You said,
depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using. depend on whose legal code you're using.
So war is always legal killing?
That would depend on whose legal code you're using. I'd guess that the aggressor is usually seen as killing illegally by the defender's legal code, but is legal in the aggressor's code.
Then you started going on about how we should ignore the will of G-d and let people make the call. Apparently when you were talking about legality you were talking about in Torah Law. I was simply explaining the dictionary difference in the meaning of the words "murder" and "killing" in a neutral setting.
If you were to ask me if it would be legal for Russia to go to war with Ukraine over Crimea, I would tell you that the Torah doesn't have any Laws for any other nation except Israel and to the best of my knowledge, the Laws regarding wars only apply in the land of Israel. So the Torah simply has no opinion about a Russian-Ukranian war.
Tumah
Veteran Member
Num 35 and Num 31 are direct quotes...
Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
You are clearly taking about humans in that post. I ask when it is legal and you go well it depends who you ask, if God has laws then it does not depend who you ask.
"If you were to ask me if it would be legal for Russia to go to war with Ukraine over Crimea, I would tell you that the Torah doesn't have any Laws for any other nation except Israel and to the best of my knowledge, the Laws regarding wars only apply in the land of Israel. So the Torah simply has no opinion about a Russian-Ukranian war"
So as long as we live outside of Israel murder is justified in the eyes of God. Got it, thanks.
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Jeremiahcp
Well-Known Jerk
Do you not know what a quote is? I am not playing the it is over there somewhere game.