Does Anyone Practice Determinism?

[URAVIP2ME]

Although "determination" has the same linguistic root as "determinism," the two do not refer to the same thing. As your teacher used the word, "determination" means "firmness of purpose; resoluteness." Determinism, on the other hand, refers to "the doctrine that all events, including human action, are ultimately determined by causes external to the will."
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and thank you also for your reply. Is determinsim also connected to the teaching about predestination.
Human will, human action, to me causes us to stop at stop signs and red lights. I think we have the choice to stop or Not stop within oneself.

 

[columbus]

If all determined to happen then why bother to stop at a stop sign or a red light.

Because most people have a deeply ingrained instinct for self preservation and recognize the following of such rules improves their chances. That instinct goes back at least a billion years. But some people don't really learn all the best self preservation techniques in the unnatural world we live in. Other instincts override the learning.
Humans are not really as rational as we like to believe.
Tom

 

[Kemosloby]

I had a teacher who observed that the person with the most determination could be successful, so to me determination, or perhaps a form of determinism, would be practical in real life.
What does determinism mean to you.

But who determines who will have the most determination?

 

[idav]

But who determines who will have the most determination?

The first cause.

 

[idav]

Almost all people who think about the possibility of a deterministic existence regard their acts as functions of a free will because it far more satisfying than to think they had no actual say in what they do.


They don't. There is no such thing as choice or any of its cognates. All our actions are determined by the causes that lead up to them.

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The physics we are used seeing around us does seem deterministic but it's debatable still whether it is indetemnistic underneath and not in a random sense.

 

[shunyadragon]

Practice determinism?!?!?!? What an odd proposal. How long do you have to practice to believe in determinism????

As a compatablist I consider Determinism the foundation of the nature of our existence, and the basis of uniformatism and the consistent predictability of Methodological Naturalism, which provides the basis of the falsification of theories and hypothesis. Every time the predictability of theories and hypothesis are tested the uniform determinist nature of our physical existence is tested.

Actually the nature of life, and human nature is high deterministic by the series of the consequences of events in cause and effect, but than do humans have the potential of making free will decisions in this framework of determinism.

I believe the evidence supports the 'potential' of free will in human choices within the range of limits that per-determined, by the chain of consequences and cause and effect. The problem is from the human perspective one cannot determine whether our decisions are free will of determined by the preceding chain of cause and events, or to what degree their choices are limited..

 

[shunyadragon]

The first cause.

The first cause can, of course, natural or Divine and it is unlikely that humans can ever definitively make the distinction.

 

[The Holy Bottom Burp]

I don't think anyone "practices" determinism, it is a philosophical standpoint that, as @Sha'irullah says, can make you more sympathetic and empathetic than those who believe a deity is pulling the strings. I'm deterministic in my beliefs, but not nihilistic, I create meanings for myself and live life as though those meanings matter. My love for another person may be just chemistry, but damn you if you get in my way of loving that person, I'll knock your teeth out (in a friendly humanist kind of way!).

Nothing to see here, move on I say.

 

[1137]

Determinism reminds me of those like Gandhi. Even though they are oppressed and mistreated they understand that if they continue the cycle they will then just end up mistreating others on the opposite side. Determinism to me offers more morality regardless if it is truthful or not.

Yes, but people like him have to recognize the cycle and choose to separate themselves from it. This is free to will.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Yes, but people like him have to recognize the cycle and choose to separate themselves from it. This is free to will.

That is not the point or even possible in determinism. All of my very actions have the sense of free will, there is no escape from determinism just the illusion of individual effort.

 

[Sha'irullah]

I don't think anyone "practices" determinism, it is a philosophical standpoint that, as @Sha'irullah says, can make you more sympathetic and empathetic than those who believe a deity is pulling the strings. I'm deterministic in my beliefs, but not nihilistic, I create meanings for myself and live life as though those meanings matter. My love for another person may be just chemistry, but damn you if you get in my way of loving that person, I'll knock your teeth out (in a friendly humanist kind of way!).

Nothing to see here, move on I say.

You are a pretty entertaining concoction of predetermined chemicals

 

[columbus]

don't think anyone "practices" determinism, it is a philosophical standpoint

To me, this is the point. Determinism isn't an ideology or practice, like Catholicism or something. It's more just an observation.
Humans make their choices based on reasons, but we are too limited in our perceptions and reasoning to even see the reasons mostly.
The results of these limitations is the powerful illusion of fundamental agency, free will. But we don't really have it in any absolute sense. We always make our choices based on what we have come to believe is in our own best interests. That may be ignorant and deluded, and often is. But it's still determined by things outside of our knowledge and control. So we are not really free to choose from any and all available choices.

Only an Omnimax God would be truly free.
Tom

 

[ADigitalArtist]

To me practicing determinism is like practicing solipsism. You either recognize the possibility that your actions are pre-determined or not impacting a reality outside yourself and get on with your life or you recognize the possibility that your actions are pre-determined or not impacting a reality outside yourself and don't get on with your life. Mostly I see people doing the former.

 

[Repox]

One implication of determinism is Satan was created to be evil. Without a choice, Satan just is. However, it would also mean we are not responsible for our actions, we just do it, evil or not.
If we are determined, there are no criminals, just poor suckers who get caught. Common law would have to be revised, there would no punishment, just be rehabilitation.

 

[idav]

I'M A DETERMINISTIC AND I CAN'T MAKE UP MY MIND ABOUT WHICH SHIRT TO WEAR! O PHILOSOPHICAL DILEMMA!

It may be possible for two or more choices to have equal potential in being the decision. Don't let your determinism hinder your free will.

 

[Sha'irullah]

One implication of determinism is Satan was created to be evil. Without a choice, Satan just is. However, it would also mean we are not responsible for our actions, we just do it, evil or not.
If we are determined, there are no criminals, just poor suckers who get caught. Common law would have to be revised, there would no punishment, just be rehabilitation.

Doesn't matter if we have responsibility since we still are destined to be immoral or moral. It just means the separation of the sinner from the saint. Only reason it causes gripes with you is that it makes a supreme being interested in human morality appear like an evil toddler

 

[idav]

As a compatablist I consider Determinism the foundation of the nature of our existence, and the basis of uniformatism and the consistent predictability of Methodological Naturalism, which provides the basis of the falsification of theories and hypothesis. Every time the predictability of theories and hypothesis are tested the uniform determinist nature of our physical existence is tested.

Nature could be fundamentally indeterministic, which is what I think the experiments are showing us, but the jury is still out and is still largely unanswered. QM loves to flip physical logic on it's head.

 

[Skwim]

.

and thank you also for your reply. Is determinsim also connected to the teaching about predestination.

Within the concept of hard determinism, predestination is a given.

Human will, human action, to me causes us to stop at stop signs and red lights. I think we have the choice to stop or Not stop within oneself.

And as I see the human condition, there is no such thing as choice or any of its cognates. All our actions are determined by the series of causes/effect events leading up to them.

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[Nous]

People who believe in determinism don't act any differently than anyone else.

Actually that apparently isn't true. Studies show that people who have been encouraged to believe that determinism in human actions is true (or disbelieve that people have free will) are subsequently more likely to behave unethically compared to those who haven't been similiarly encouraged. See the OP here: Psychological and Behavioral Effects of Belief in Determinism vs. Belief in Free Will :

Kathleen Vohs and Jonathan Schooler had one group of students read passages that asserted and otherwise promoted the view that free will is an illusion, while the control group read neutral material. The former group was then found to express weaker belief in free will on a Free Will and Determinism Scale, and were more likely to cheat on a mathematics task than were those in the control group. In a companion experiment, a group of participants exposed to statements of behavioral determinism more often engaged in deceptive behavior equivalent to stealing (in which they allowed the researchers to pay them for correct answers they didn't give on a mathematical task) compared to participants exposed to neutral statements or statements endorsing free will.

Baumeister, Masicampo and DeWall built upon these findings, showing that students exposed to material advocating determinism were subsequently less likely to agree to lend help to someone else (even in minor ways, e.g., allowing a classmate to use one's cell phone), were less likely to actually volunteer to help someone in need (even by doing easy work such as stuffing envelopes), and, most disturbingly, were more likely to engage in acts of aggression against innocent people than were their peers who had been exposed to messages that were either neutral or endorsed free will.

These findings are not really surprising. The authors cite other evidence and provide a brief account for why disbelief in one's freedom to choose one's actions correlates with engaging in undesirable antisocial behavior. Vohs and Schooler:

It is well established that changing people’s sense of responsibility can change their behavior. For example, invoking a sense of personal accountability causes people to modify their behavior to better align with their attitudes (Harmon-Jones & Mills, 1999). Believing that outcomes are based on an inborn trait, rather than effort, also influences behavior. For instance, Mueller and Dweck (1998) observed 10-year-old children who were told that they had been successful on an initial task either as the result of their intelligence or through their hard work. In a second round, all the children encountered a task that was well beyond their performance level (i.e., they failed at it). When the children were given yet a third task, those who thought their earlier success was due to their intelligence put forth less effort and reported lower enjoyment than those who thought their initial success was due to their own effort. The authors concluded that the former children’s belief that their performance was linked to their intelligence indicated to them that achieving a high score on the difficult problems in the second round was beyond their ability. Hence, faring poorly (on an admittedly difficult task) indicated to children in the intelligence condition that they were simply not smart enough for the task, which in turn led them to stop trying to perform well and to like the task less.

If reducing people’s sense of control also reduces the amount of effort they put toward improving their performance, then advocating a deterministic worldview that dismisses individual causation may similarly promote undesirable behavior.​

Baumeister, Masicampo and DeWall further discuss why belief in free will seems to promote socially desirable behavior:

. . . Vohs and Schooler (2008) proposed that disbelief in free will serves as a subtle cue that exerting volition is futile and thereby gives people permission not to bother. The idea of not bothering to exert volition appeals to people insofar as volition in the form of self-control and choice requires exertion and depletes energy (Baumeister, Bratslavsky, Muraven, & Tice, 1998; Gailliot et al., 2007; Vohs et al., 2008). In a sense, then, making people disbelieve in free will may serve as a nonconscious prime to act in relatively automatic ways, which would thus include enacting impulses rather than exerting control and restraint.

We examined two related possibilities, as well. One was that inducing belief in free will stimulates a conscious feeling of being active and energetic, thereby making people feel like they want to exert control. Another is that belief in free will supports (and disbelief undermines) a sense of personal responsibility and accountability. Feelings of responsibility and accountability may make people feel that they ought to behave in socially desirable ways, such as performing prosocial acts of helping and restraining antisocial impulses to aggress against others. The deterministic belief essentially says that the person could not act otherwise, which resembles a standard form of excuse (“I couldn’t help it”) and thus might encourage people to act in short-sighted, impulsive, selfish ways.​

And #41 same thread:

Another interesting finding:

High free will belief has been linked to thinking for oneself instead of mindlessly conforming to the opinions of others, to counterfactual thinking and learning from one’s mistakes, to self-efficacy and (sometimes) internal locus of control, as well as to brain activity associated with initiating movement and to actual behavior. Disbelief in free will appears to foster an attitude of passivity, indifference, and perhaps wide-ranging disregard for moral responsibility.

[. . .]

. . . people associate free will with resisting external, social pressures and with deliberately choosing one’s actions. Consistent with those themes, evidence suggests that belief in free will reduces conformity. Alquist and Baumeister (2010) found a positive correlation between measured belief in free will and a questionnaire measure of tendency to conform. They also provided experimental evidence that inducing disbelief in free will caused participants to conform. Specifically, participants furnished ratings of art works while they could see what ratings had ostensibly been given by previous participants. Disbelief in free will made participants furnish ratings that echoed the prior ratings, as compared to other conditions, who were more likely to express novel, independent judgments different from the prior ones.​

http://www.laurenebrewer.com/upload...wer_2012_-_fw_correlates_and_consequences.pdf

I take it that this is another finding that isn't really surprising. It is again what we generally observe, is it not?

 

[columbus]

If we are determined, there are no criminals, just poor suckers who get caught. Common law would have to be revised, there would no punishment, just be rehabilitation.

It doesn't mean that to me at all.
There are several reasons for just punishment. Rehabilitation is only one of them. There's also deterrence and the safety of the rest of us to consider.
What it does do is make the vengeance motivated punishment immoral. If there is no good coming out of the punishment is simply evil. It's causing suffering just because it feels good to do so.
I don't think vengeance is at all moral, it's more of an irrational instinct people often have.
Tom