Does Anyone Practice Determinism?

[George-ananda]

Actually that apparently isn't true. Studies show that people who have been encouraged to believe that determinism in human actions is true (or disbelieve that people have free will) are subsequently more likely to behave unethically compared to those who haven't been similiarly encouraged. See the OP here: Psychological and Behavioral Effects of Belief in Determinism vs. Belief in Free Will :

Actually I suspected non-belief in determinism was subjectively better. I was a bit conservative in my comment.

 

[Skwim]

The physics we are used seeing around us does seem deterministic but it's debatable still whether it is indetemnistic underneath and not in a random sense.

Quantum events are indeterministic, in that we can't can't determine when or how they will appear, but this certainly doesn't mean they aren't caused---our inability is a matter of our ignorance. And this is the sense that we see "random" used, as in the random roll of dice.

One implication of determinism is Satan was created to be evil. Without a choice, Satan just is. However, it would also mean we are not responsible for our actions, we just do it, evil or not.
If we are determined, there are no criminals, just poor suckers who get caught. Common law would have to be revised, there would no punishment, just be rehabilitation.

Yeah, there are a lot of implications to determinism, many sitting as reason to dismiss it out of hand. For Christian's in particular it has the odious implication that sin and salvation are meaningless. Hence Christians are probably the most vociferous group fighting for the idea of free will.

.

 

[columbus]

Hence Christians are probably the most vociferous group fighting for the idea of free will.

It seems this way to me also, although it might just be my own confirmation bias. I find staunch Abrahamic religionists the most insistent on the objective existence of free will.
I suspect that is because it helps to plaster over the Problem of Evil. By invoking free will, they can shift the responsibility for everything bad(from earthquakes and Ebola to psychopaths and drug addicts) away from Omnimax God and onto us instead.
It also gives them an out concerning the ineffable character of God. God can only demonstrate His existence to a prophet here and there, because if He were as clear to the rest of us it would somehow interfere with our free will.
Tom

 

[Sunstone]

Do most people act as if determinism isn't true because of its impracticality in real life? I think I know what it means for determinism to be true but if so how would anyone ever make a decision?

Decisions are determined. How can you not make them?

 

[LukeS]

Th the OP.

If determinism then I ought to be apathetic and passive. Non sequitur.

 

[Repox]

Doesn't matter if we have responsibility since we still are destined to be immoral or moral. It just means the separation of the sinner from the saint. Only reason it causes gripes with you is that it makes a supreme being interested in human morality appear like an evil toddler

No, it has to do with logic and how you regard human action. It is either freewill or determinism and the consequences thereof. If there is no God, there must be an deterministic explanation. How did the universe come about without a creator. It goes back to the same old argument, which atheist can't substantiate. How did something come from nothing?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But who determines who will have the most determination?

Since we all have capabilities, then I think the 'person himself' determines his own determination, or how determined he will be, how much effort is he willing to expend. Some people choose to stick to things while others loose interest.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

No, it has to do with logic and how you regard human action. It is either freewill or determinism and the consequences thereof. If there is no God, there must be an deterministic explanation. How did the universe come about without a creator. It goes back to the same old argument, which atheist can't substantiate. How did something come from nothing?

To me why would an atheist have to substantiate how something comes from nothing when everything comes from something, or as Isaiah 40:26 explains things comes from God's 'power'/ God's 'strength'.
In other words, everything came into existence because it was God who supplied the needed abundant dynamic energy (power and strength) to create - Psalms 104:30.

 

[Kemosloby]

Since we all have capabilities, then I think the 'person himself' determines his own determination, or how determined he will be, how much effort is he willing to expend. Some people choose to stick to things while others loose interest.

Wrong answer

 

[URAVIP2ME]

.
Within the concept of hard determinism, predestination is a given.
And as I see the human condition, there is no such thing as choice or any of its cognates. All our actions are determined by the series of causes/effect events leading up to them.
.

If there are No choices then there is No crime, No sin.
Without choices we can't even sin against the motor-vehicle code.
If a person deliberately drives thru a red light and causes an accident then the effect is car or even person damage.
However, if a person chooses Not to drive thru a red light then to me a needless accident could be avoided.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Wrong answer

.... and the right answer is _____________________________________________

 

[Skwim]

If there are No choices then there is No crime, No sin.

BINGO!

Without choices we can't even sin against the motor-vehicle code.

BINGO! (Just to be clear here, is there such a thing as a sin against the motor-vehicle code?)

If a person deliberately drives thru a red light and causes an accident then the effect is car or even person damage.
However, if a person chooses Not to drive thru a red light then to me a needless accident could be avoided.

But there is no such a thing as choosing. A person does or does not drive through a red light because that is what all the causes that have led up to the moment of doing have determined he will do.


.

 

[columbus]

If there are No choices then there is No crime, No sin.

There are choices. Some are determined to be antisocial and so the society punishes whoever makes them. Those are crimes.
Sin is what doesn't have objective existence, because it's a crime against a fictional, imaginary, character.
Tom

 

[URAVIP2ME]

BINGO!
BINGO! (Just to be clear here, is there such a thing as a sin against the motor-vehicle code?)
But there is no such a thing as choosing. A person does or does not drive through a red light because that is what all the causes that have led up to the moment of doing have determined he will do.
.

When we break God's law it is sinning such as found at Hebrews 13:4.
When we break man's law it is a crime. Sometimes they are in harmony with one another and sometimes not.
I would think God would want us to obey motor-vehicle codes or rules, so to man breaking them is a crime, but to God it would be sin.

Is it 'all the causes' that have led up to the moment, or rather all the past 'effects' that have led up to the moment.......
Where did it first start but to me with choices. Bad choices ending up with bad effects.
Anyway as Ecclesiastes 7:17 says Not to be foolish and die before your time.
In other words, don't choose to put one's own standards ahead of God's standards.

 

[Sha'irullah]

Sorry I was too busy putting my new eyeballs back in as I gouged them out after reading your post. Back to the topic though:

No, it has to do with logic and how you regard human action.

It has nothing to do with logic as yours is already flawed. Don't get offended as I shall prove my point . . .

It is either freewill or determinism and the consequences thereof. If there is no God, there must be an deterministic explanation.

No there does not. Randomosity seemingly happens all the time yet if you are a determinist you just associate it to the events that lead up prior to it. If there is a point of nothingness than there is no series of prior events so there is no need for determinism to be a staple of atheism. On top of this atheism says nothing about the creation of universes as none of us has experience in the making of worlds.

How did the universe come about without a creator. It goes back to the same old argument, which atheist can't substantiate. How did something come from nothing?

You do not. We have no experience in the creation of universes and just because you have no proof does not mean you insert your god. I can insert a great number of gods yet I still could not prove their creative capabilities. On top of this if you are familiar with physics you will no that nothing + nothing is determined to create something. Particles bounce in and out of existence even under the most closed circumstances.

To say a universe was born out of particle accumulation is not stretch of the mind if you know physics. Furthermore no scientist knows the details of the cosmogenesis and the fact you claim to have evidence is laughable. Your need to have a god as a creative force is unfounded and unnecessary to your own religion.

 

[Repox]

BINGO!


BINGO! (Just to be clear here, is there such a thing as a sin against the motor-vehicle code?)


But there is no such a thing as choosing. A person does or does not drive through a red light because that is what all the causes that have led up to the moment of doing have determined he will do.


Choices of others sets the stage for driving through a red light. As indicated, "does or does not," is a choice, otherwise it is unavoidable as a consequence of no choice. A better example would be if one has a hand gun and a choice to kill or not kill someone. If no one is responsible, we have a true moral dilemma, taking responsibility for one's actions when one, according to determinism, is not responsible for outcomes or actions.

 

[Repox]

Sorry I was too busy putting my new eyeballs back in as I gouged them out after reading your post. Back to the topic though:



It has nothing to do with logic as yours is already flawed. Don't get offended as I shall prove my point . . .



No there does not. Randomosity seemingly happens all the time yet if you are a determinist you just associate it to the events that lead up prior to it. If there is a point of nothingness than there is no series of prior events so there is no need for determinism to be a staple of atheism. On top of this atheism says nothing about the creation of universes as none of us has experience in the making of worlds.



You do not. We have no experience in the creation of universes and just because you have no proof does not mean you insert your god. I can insert a great number of gods yet I still could not prove their creative capabilities. On top of this if you are familiar with physics you will no that nothing + nothing is determined to create something. Particles bounce in and out of existence even under the most closed circumstances.

To say a universe was born out of particle accumulation is not stretch of the mind if you know physics. Furthermore no scientist knows the details of the cosmogenesis and the fact you claim to have evidence is laughable. Your need to have a god as a creative force is unfounded and unnecessary to your own religion.

I did not propose a religion, just a logical argument. There is no evidence to refute a time line for the universe. Therefore, based on logic there must have been a beginning for the universe. Unless one can prove something comes from nothing, the only explanation is a creator (God) created "something" (universe). Then, according to laws of entropy, matter and energy are in a constant state of flux, which is a measure of time. Unless one can prove matter and energy don't progress according to laws of entropy, one must accept the arrow of time as a variable for computing the beginning of everything. Again, what is the explanation for creation, or the existence of everything? If there is no God, what is the explanation?

 

[Sha'irullah]

I did not propose a religion, just a logical argument. There is no evidence to refute a time line for the universe. Therefore, based on logic there must have been a beginning. Unless one can prove something comes from nothing, the only explanation is a creator (God) created "something" (universe).

You obviously don't understand at all.

To saying the universe originates ex nihilo does not mean there is no beginning.

 

[Repox]

You obviously don't understand at all.

To saying the universe originates ex nihilo does not mean there is no beginning.

I didn't say there was no beginning. I said it is impossible to explain matter and energy without a cause. If there is no God, what is the cause? Again, you must assume a time line for matter and energy. There is no evidence for the universe not having a beginning. It is pure logic, if there is a beginning, there must be an explanation. Because science can't explain how something comes from nothing, the only explanation is God, the creator of everything, created matter and energy.

 

[Skwim]

Is it 'all the causes' that have led up to the moment,

Yes it is.

or rather all the past 'effects' that have led up to the moment.......

Past events may or may not operate as subsequent causes in one's life.

Where did it first start but to me with choices. Bad choices ending up with bad effects.
Anyway as Ecclesiastes 7:17 says Not to be foolish and die before your time.
In other words, don't choose to put one's own standards ahead of God's standards.

If you insist on talking about events as choices there isn't anything more I have to offer.

.