Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[muhammad_isa]

So killing everyone who violates the laws is preferable?

No .. but that doesn't happen.
Cases only come to light when people want to accuse another of a crime.
The main thing, is that people will think twice before committing adultery/fornication.

Just one person in a decade convicted of adultery, and punished severely, sends
a message to society that it won't be tolerated.

There will always be people who don't like that .. who think it's OK to fool around with women.

 

[SkepticThinker]

For a long time I told myself I'd die
fighting rather than have it happenn
again.
Except now I have to face that it was
as involuntary as what followed was,
I was paralyzed.

You sound a lot like me.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I was in the hospital in NYC.
Mom came from Hong Kong.

It was so hard on her, I wish some way she
didn't have to know.

I don't think my mom could handle it. She would find a way to blame herself and that would kill me.

 

[Audie]

I don't think my mom could handle it. She would find a way to blame herself and that would kill me.

Oh, Mom found 10,000 ways to blame
herself.

Should never have let me go to America.
Should have this, didn't do that, every failure
to see it coming- name it, she felt it.

She took me back to Hk where before long and alone
so temporarily in the flat i went out and started
over the rail, 17 floors up.

I didn't jump, because I could not do that to my
Mom.

If somehow she had not known about what
happened to me in NYC, I'd be dead now.

 

[Polymath257]

I would prefer not to live in such a violent society, where adultery is common, and crimes of passion
are numerous.

I would prefer not to live in a society that allows marital rape. Adultery isn't the most common cause of violence.

I would prefer not to live in a society that criminalizes sex outside of marriage.

I would prefer not to live in a society that is dominated by religious tyrants.

I would prefer not to live in a society that adopts the death penalty for adultery.

I would prefer not to live in a society where the laws are determined by religious zealots.

I can go on...

 

[SkepticThinker]

No .. but that doesn't happen.
Cases only come to light when people want to accuse another of a crime.
The main thing, is that people will think twice before committing adultery/fornication.

That sounds much more violent to me than the culture I live in. Yikes!

Just one person in a decade convicted of adultery, and punished severely, sends
a message to society that it won't be tolerated.

There will always be people who don't like that .. who think it's OK to fool around with women.

The Wiki link that I posted, to which you did not object (unless I missed it) says that Saudi Arabia doesn't even consider marital rape to be rape and that they don't actually have a written law that criminalizes rape or "prescribes its punishment."

 

[SkepticThinker]

Oh, Mom found 10,000 ways to blame
herself.

Should never have let me go to America.
Should have this, didn't do that, every failure
to see it coming- name it, she felt it.

She took me back to Hk where before long and alone
so temporarily in the flat i went out and started
over the rail, 17 floors up.

I didn't jump, because I could not do that to my
Mom.

If somehow she had not known about what
happened to me in NYC, I'd be dead now.

I'm so sorry you and your mom had to go through that. Nobody should.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I would prefer not to live in a society that criminalizes sex outside of marriage..

Well, you've got what you want .. enjoy.

 

[muhammad_isa]

That sounds much more violent to me than the culture I live in..

I suppose you get used to what goes on around you..

Gun violence results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually in the United States. Gun violence became the leading cause of death for children 19 and younger for the first time in 2020 and by 2022, it was responsible for about 100 daily fatalities and hundreds of daily injuries.
Gun_violence_in_the_United_States - Wikipedia

What goes on in the States, is usually mirrored by other western nations as time goes by.

 

[Audie]

I'm so sorry you and your mom had to go through that. Nobody should.

Thank you for your thoughts.
It's not in my mind though a story for
sympathy but about human spirit.

Of all people I believe you know about that..

 

[SkepticThinker]

I suppose you get used to what goes on around you..

Gun violence results in tens of thousands of deaths and injuries annually in the United States. Gun violence became the leading cause of death for children 19 and younger for the first time in 2020 and by 2022, it was responsible for about 100 daily fatalities and hundreds of daily injuries.
Gun_violence_in_the_United_States - Wikipedia

What goes on in the States, is usually mirrored by other western nations as time goes by.

I'm not American.

You ignored what I was pointing out though. A society that kills its citizens for every infraction, is a violent society, in my opinion. It's like living in the Dark Ages.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Thank you for your thoughts.
It's not in my mind though a story for
sympathy but about human spirit.

Of all people I believe you know about that..

Absolutely. I quite like that.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A society that kills its citizens for every infraction, is a violent society..

..but I have already pointed out, that that doesn't happen.
It is up to the nation, what action they take against proved misdemeanours.
Effectively legalising sex outside of marriage, is by public consent.

..and that is why modern secular states do that .. due to public opinion.
When/if people realise that society is disintegrating, public opinion might change.

There will always be people who want to be free to do what they like..
..it is all about where we draw the line.

 

[SkepticThinker]

..but I have already pointed out, that that doesn't happen.

Have you not being saying that societies should kill adulterers? That societies that kill adulterers are less violent than societies that don't?

Yep, you did:

"A society that is based on belief, and the death penalty for playing around with women,
will have a lower rate of sexual misdemeanour. Any abuse in marriage is a separate issue."


What I am saying is that societies that kill their citizens for every little infraction are the violent societies. While you're trying to saying that societies that kill adulterers (and cut off the hands of robbers?) are somehow less violent than the ones who don't kill their citizens for every infraction. Which doesn't make any sense to me.

It is up to the nation, what action they take against proved misdemeanours.
Effectively legalising sex outside of marriage, is by public consent.

..and that is why modern secular states do that .. due to public opinion.
When/if people realise that society is disintegrating, public opinion might change.

There will always be people who want to be free to do what they like..
..it is all about where we draw the line.

 

[muhammad_isa]

What I am saying is that societies that kill their citizens for every little infraction are the violent societies. While you're trying to saying that societies that kill adulterers (and cut off the hands of robbers?) are somehow less violent than the ones who don't kill their citizens for every infraction. Which doesn't make any sense to me.

It makes a lot of sense.
At the moment, people are free to commit fornication and adultery, as long as "nothing goes wrong",
and nobody is accused of foul play.
This leads to increased violence in society. Sex is a powerful thing, and men often feel violent towards men
who "fool with their gal" .. or even to a woman who messes about.

When there is a punishment [ flogging, for example ], people will think twice, and if they DO
commit adultery or fornication, they will try to keep it from public view.
..thus society will be less decadent, and less violence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

It makes a lot of sense.
At the moment, people are free to commit fornication and adultery, as long as "nothing goes wrong",
and nobody is accused of foul play.
This leads to increased violence in society. Sex is a powerful thing, and men often feel violent towards men
who "fool with their gal" .. or even to a woman who messes about.

When there is a punishment [ flogging, for example ], people will think twice, and if they DO
commit adultery or fornication, they will try to keep it from public view.
..thus society will be less decadent, and less violence.

Okay, you don't seem to be understanding me.

You're advocating for violence against people for committing non-violent actions such as stealing or cheating on one's spouse. You are advocating that such people should be killed, beaten ("flogged") or maimed, which are about the most violent things I can think of to do to a person. So what you're advocating for is a society filled with violence for what sounds like almost any infraction or violation of the law. But in your mind, that is a less violent society than one that doesn't beat and kill people for breaking the law (and non-laws)? It doesn't add up.

 

[muhammad_isa]

.. what you're advocating for is a society filled with violence for what sounds like almost any infraction or violation of the law..

I know, you are so used to sexual misdemeanour, that you see it as " a small thing".
..but it is not a small thing.

When major sins become commonplace, society disintegrates.
You don't believe me? Wait and see .. that is, if you can't see already.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I know, you are so used to sexual misdemeanour, that you see it as " a small thing".
..but it is not a small thing.

When major sins become commonplace, society disintegrates.
You don't believe me? Wait and see .. that is, if you can't see already.

Question: if you think imposing your personal moral view on everyone - up to and including executions and floggings - is AOK, you must be fine with the rest of us imposing our moral views on you, right?

I mean, the only reason I would ever tolerate your brand of Islam is out of a general idea of "live and let live"... but you've made it clear that we should abandon a "live and let live" approach.

So you're good with me deciding how you should live your life, right?

 

[Audie]

Question: if you think imposing your personal moral view on everyone - up to and including executions and floggings - is AOK, you must be fine with the rest of us imposing our moral views on you, right?

I mean, the only reason I would ever tolerate your brand of Islam is out of a general idea of "live and let live"... but you've made it clear that we should abandon a "live and let live" approach.

So you're good with me deciding how you should live your life, right?

Live and let live with Islam? Never.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Question: if you think imposing your personal moral view on everyone - up to and including executions and floggings - is AOK, you must be fine with the rest of us imposing our moral views on you, right?

I mean, the only reason I would ever tolerate your brand of Islam is out of a general idea of "live and let live"... but you've made it clear that we should abandon a "live and let live" approach.

So you're good with me deciding how you should live your life, right?

To be honest, if I could impose my moral standards on him, I would never permit him or any other man who shares his beliefs to marry or have children.

Live and let live with Islam? Never.

After reading muhammad_isa's views in this thread, I now regard his Islamic beliefs as equally detrimental to our society as evangelical Christianity.