Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[Audie]

To be honest, if I could impose my moral standards on him, I would never permit him or any other man who shares his beliefs to marry or have children.



After reading muhammad_isa's views in this thread, I now regard his Islamic beliefs as equally detrimental to our society as evangelical Christianity.

Way worse

 

[muhammad_isa]

Question: if you think imposing your personal moral view on everyone - up to and including executions and floggings - is AOK, you must be fine with the rest of us imposing our moral views on you, right?

I'm not imposing anything on anybody .. I'm merely warning of the consequences, as I take G-d's books and messengers seriously.

The fact that many people in the West are turning away from G-d, and secular law is becoming widespread
means in effect that others are imposing their views on me.
That is democracy.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm not imposing anything on anybody ..

Sure you're not.

I'm merely warning of the consequences, as I take G-d's books and messengers seriously.

Well, then you're already done.

The fact that many people in the West are turning away from G-d, and secular law is becoming widespread
means in effect that others are imposing their views on me.
That is democracy.

No, other people living their lives as they see fit imposes nothing on you. You aren't entitled to have other people behave or believe in any particular way.

 

[F1fan]

I'm not imposing anything on anybody .. I'm merely warning of the consequences, as I take G-d's books and messengers seriously.

The fact that many people in the West are turning away from G-d, and secular law is becoming widespread
means in effect that others are imposing their views on me.
That is democracy.

You can always move to a Muslim theocracy. Why don't you?

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, other people living their lives as they see fit imposes nothing on you. You aren't entitled to have other people behave or believe in any particular way.

Well, OK then .. if it was the other way round, and the majority favoured Islamic law, you wouldn't
feel that it was imposed on you?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Well, OK then .. if it was the other way round, and the majority favoured Islamic law, you wouldn't
feel that it was imposed on you?

The fact that adultery and premarital sex aren't crimes doesn't force you to commit adultery or have premarital sex. You are not being imposed upon.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I know, you are so used to sexual misdemeanour, that you see it as " a small thing".
..but it is not a small thing.

When major sins become commonplace, society disintegrates.
You don't believe me? Wait and see .. that is, if you can't see already.

I'd rather you address my point instead of trying to tell me what I'm "used to."

You are advocating for a very violent society in which the government is cutting off peoples' hands for non-violent crimes and killing and torturing people for non-violent crimes while claiming that the society I live in, where we don't kill people for cheating on their spouse and we don't cut peoples' hands off if they steal something is the actual violent one? Let's address that please.

 

[muhammad_isa]

The fact that adultery and premarital sex aren't crimes doesn't force you to commit adultery or have premarital sex. You are not being imposed upon.

It depends on how you view things.
If somebody enters my flat and steals something, or steals my car,
the police just give us a crime number .. i.e. it is not taken very seriously

Many people would like to see the courts able to deal with repeat offenders
more harshly, to make it worthwhile for the police to follow up .. and decrease such occurrence.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm not imposing anything on anybody .. I'm merely warning of the consequences, as I take G-d's books and messengers seriously.

The fact that many people in the West are turning away from G-d, and secular law is becoming widespread
means in effect that others are imposing their views on me.
That is democracy.

You advocate for a primitive society in which we kill, torture or maim people for committing non-violent crimes. Well, we've already tried that once, and it was a massive failure. We already know the consequences of taking the contents of old religious books too seriously. And they aren't good and they don't result in human flourishing. Quite the opposite. So, no thanks. I'm going to stick with the enlightenment thinking that got us out of that mess.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

You advocate for a primitive society in which we kill, torture or maim people for committing non-violent crimes. Well, we've already tried that once, and it was a massive failure. We already know the consequences of taking the contents of old religious books too seriously. And they aren't good and they don't result in human flourishing. Quite the opposite. So, no thanks. I'm going to stick with the enlightenment thinking that got us out of that mess.

As long as you understand that even the enlightenment thinking has its limits and in effect we are not in that one anymore.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are advocating for a very violent society..

No, I'm not .. I'm advocating for law and order.

in which the government is cutting off peoples' hands for non-violent crimes

I think you'll find that the vast majority of people will avoid having their hands cut off, by not participating in
organised crime.

 

[SkepticThinker]

As long as you understand that even the enlightenment thinking has its limits and in effect we are not in that one anymore.

Of course. My hope is that we continue to grow beyond that as well.

 

[Revoltingest]

I'm not imposing anything on anybody .. I'm merely warning of the consequences, as I take G-d's books and messengers seriously.

The fact that many people in the West are turning away from G-d, and secular law is becoming widespread
means in effect that others are imposing their views on me.
That is democracy.

In secular societies, you get to practice your
religion....to the extent it doesn't harm others.
That sounds like no imposition at all.

 

[SkepticThinker]

No, I'm not .. I'm advocating for law and order.

By "law and order" you mean violent punishments for non-violent crimes.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of people will avoid having their hands cut off, by not participating in
organised crime.

This does nothing to address the fact that you are advocating for violent punishments for non-violent crimes, which creates a more violent society, not a less violent one. A society in which the government is free to torture and murder it's citizens for apparently any infraction it sees fit, is a violent society. And like I said, we've already tried that and found that it failed abysmally and (most of us) have realized that and moved beyond that long ago.

 

[muhammad_isa]

A society in which the government is free to torture and murder it's citizens for apparently any infraction it sees fit

Why would any morally upright citizen want that?
They wouldn't .. and nor do I.

..And like I said, we've already tried that and found that it failed abysmally and (most of us) have realized that and moved beyond that long ago.

Like I say .. wait and see.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Why would any morally upright citizen want that?
They wouldn't .. and nor do I.

You do, apparently.

Like I say .. wait and see.

This isn't a response. Especially when I just pointed out that we've already tried your way.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This isn't a response. Especially when I just pointed out that we've already tried your way.

..actually, that is not true..
I don't think that Western Europe has "tried my way".

Nevertheless, civilisations rise and fall .. and that is a fact.

 

[SkepticThinker]

..actually, that is not true..
I don't think that Western Europe has "tried my way".

Nevertheless, civilisations rise and fall .. and that is a fact.

I assure you, it's true. Grab a history book and start reading about religious practices in Medieval Europe, if you can stomach it. It's pretty heinous.

We need to move away from that crap where we're killing and maiming people for anything and everything. It's not conducive to human flourishing, which we already know from history.

 

[muhammad_isa]

..We need to move away from that crap..

"we" already have, and indiscriminate killing is on the increase.

 

[SkepticThinker]

"we" already have, and indiscriminate killing is on the increase.

What you want is to go back in time. No thanks. That was not a good time for humanity. We need to learn from history, not repeat it.