Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[Hockeycowboy]

Atheists have no external scaffolding.

Sure there are. The laws of the land they live in. We all live in.

and pretty obviously not a scourge of God.

Never said STD’s or the like, were.

It's a medically manageable problem.

Yeah, more drugs! Just what we need, more of society reliant on drugs! Wonderful!

The biblical authors didn't know the causes of disease, but mandated draconian regulation, enforcement, punishments, and social opprobrium, justified through religion, to reduce disease, misbehavior, and other social ills.

This borders on shallow thinking.
Shame and guilt isn’t all we’re talking about here…
There are other very apparent damaging repercussions, such as the unwanted children that come from these unions. Or the emotional harm that often occurs. Sexual activity is, for many, a way of bonding, and when one partner is left for another, feeling “used & thrown away”, mental & emotional dysfunction can arise.

Now that we better understand disease and epidemiology, sex may be enjoyed safely and promiscuously, without worries, as long as proper hygienic precautions are observed and others eschew useless judgement or shaming.

So, you reject that peer-reviewed science I presented, huh?

What you call “draconian”, I call “wisdom”.

There may be religious-induced guilt from such activity, but guilt & shame can be felt by those engaging in promiscuous behaviors, without a religious stimulus behind it!


How many children resulting from uncommitted unions, do you think, feeling unwanted & unloved, become a part of the criminal element in our societies? Nobody cared about them, so they don’t care who they hurt! An attitude borne directly from the actions of two people, years ago, who just wanted to satisfy their urges.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Those mores also do harm. I was a Christian as a young man and married a woman without prior sexual experience with her. We were sexually incompatible. We were also incompatible as housemates. We also hadn't tried living together yet. Such is faith. I eventually left that religion and unhappy marriage, met a woman that I determined I was compatible with before marrying, and have been happily married for over 33 years now.

The Abrahamic religions' interest in sexual practices was practical. They needed every fertile womb to be in production, and they were concerned about paternity and inheritance. The Hebrews were frequently at war, killing their young men prematurely. Women died in childbirth more frequently and infant mortality was high. And everybody everywhere was more likely to die of an infection such as a tooth abscess or wound infection, or from a poisoning from bad food. So, every young maiden was encouraged to marry as soon as she was fertile, and there were admonitions about withholding sex, divorce, homosexuality, masturbation, and contraceptive practices (rhythm method at first; pills, IUDs, and abortion later).

And those articles were admonitions against careless sex, not extramarital sex. The first was about Nigerians acquiring STDs, and the second about sex with strangers. There is room for safe, responsible, life-affirming, extramarital sexual relationships.

We don't need answers from heaven to achieve peace, and the religions don't promote it except with minimal lip service. The religions with their tribal gods, and their bigotries and irrational and counterproductive moral commandments are not the answer. We need a better means of generating mutually tolerant people, and we have one - secular humanism. The US Constitution with its humanistic influences forced religious tolerance on the colonies, a step toward just that vision. Finland just joined the UN (edit: oops! NATO), the latest step toward realizing that vision.

The religions aren't part of such processes. Saying 'love one another' accomplishes nothing. And religions don't exist for mankind. They're self-licking ice cream cones: "a process, department, institution, or other thing that offers few benefits and exists primarily to justify or perpetuate its own existence." Where were they during the pandemic? It was secular governments developing and rolling out vaccines and subsidizing people and businesses, not the church. But the religions unsurprisingly continue to offer themselves as the answer.

Have you seen the Baha'i threads? And they also complain that if only people would obey their God and scriptures better, they could be united, then tell members of the other Abrahamic faiths that their religions are outdated and decadent. That wasn't very well received. I tell them the same - you don't have answers. This approach hasn't produced unity, just more tribalism.

Once again, I agree with quite a bit of what you said, regarding religion.

That’s why you should find the following, interesting:
Just who do you think is the Great Harlot of Revelation chaps 17 & 18? The descriptions given, only fit one thing:
It is religious thinking, including it’s institutions, that is alienated from our Creator, Jehovah….. “in her was found the blood of…everyone
who has been murdered (Revelation 18:24)”; that would include Abel, who was murdered by Cain due to twisted thinking.

Yes, the Bible informs us that religious institutions, which promote twisted ideas misrepresenting Jehovah, the God of the Bible, will eventually be destroyed by the political element of this Earth. (“Beast” & “horns”)

This is what I believe.

How could religion be called a “Harlot / prostitute”? Any ideas?
We can discuss this privately, in a conversation, if you’d like.

 

[Valjean]

"change in populations. Individuals don't evolve"

Technically it starts with one.

Accumulated, inborn changes are the product of a long series of births. One doesn't evolve. I, as an individual, don't accumulate the changes leading to anatomic, physiologic or psychological change during my lifetime, as nPeace seemed to imply.

 

[We Never Know]

Accumulated, inborn changes are the product of a long series of births. One doesn't evolve. I, as an individual, don't accumulate the changes leading to anatomic, physiologic or psychological change during my lifetime, as nPeace seemed to imply.

Its starts with one. For example the mutation for blue eyes started with one, not a whole population

 

[Hockeycowboy]

The Baha'i Faith has also outlawed sexual promiscuity and any kind of sex outside of marriage.
I cannot say what other Baha'is do but I know that Christians are not following the Bible since many of the men I talk to on dating sites are Christians and they all want casual sex...

Well, it's a known fact that most people don't wait until they get married to have sex, and that includes Christians...
But nobody wants to talk about this, they just sweep it under the rug.

Atheists have no reason to avoid casual sex so I don't fault them for it, but it is hypocritical to call oneself a Christian and then go against what the Bible says. Of course that would also apply to a Baha'i if they didn't adhere to the Baha'i Laws regarding sex.

As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we follow Paul’s counsel he outlined in 1 Corinthians 5. We apply it to those who are unrepentant, though.

Years ago I got involved in sexual activity with a lady I wasn’t married to, but I was remorseful so I was not “disfellowshipped.” That’s the term we use.

However, later, after I married, my wife was removed / disfellowshipped from being a Witness, due to actions before we were married. Circumstances arose that forced her to admit them. (IOW, she had been trying to hide it.) The brothers arranged a meeting to talk with us, and reached the conclusion that she wasn’t truly sorry. She was disfellowshipped, but it was only for around 6 months….she was reinstated, after displaying “acts that befit repentance.” — Acts 26:20…..https://biblehub.com/acts/26-20.htm

She was actually d’f’d twice; the second time ended our marriage. But she eventually returned, both times, and she was reinstated. It took a lot of humility, for her to come back, twice!

Not only do we strive to keep the congregation clean…. we strive to help those erring, to see that their actions are not approved by God, they need to “set things straight”, and fix their relationship with Jehovah. If we didn’t take action, we would just be enablers, with dire consequences for them!

We take unrepentant immoral conduct seriously! As do Jehovah and Jesus!

IMO

In our worldwide congregation, the vast majority of those d’f’d / disfellowshipped, are for sexual immorality. Fortunately, many turn around and are reinstated.

 

[Valjean]

Sure there are. The laws of the land they live in. We all live in.

I don't base my moral behavior on law.

Yeah, more drugs! Just what we need, more of society reliant on drugs! Wonderful!

Drugs would remove or greatly reduce one of the untoward effects cited for promiscuity, would they not?
I was thinking more of knowing your venereal health status, contact tracking, practicing safe sex, &c.

This borders on shallow thinking.
Shame and guilt isn’t all we’re talking about here…
There are other very apparent damaging repercussions, such as the unwanted children that come from these unions.

Easily prevented.

Or the emotional harm that often occurs.

As a result of the largely religiously based shame, humiliation, rejection or worse.

Sexual activity is, for many, a way of bonding, and when one partner is left for another, feeling “used & thrown away”, mental & emotional dysfunction can arise.

But it need not be. Icelanders, for example, will often sleep together on a first date, and decide if they're socially compatible on subsequent dates.
Mores vary. Casual sex amongst unmarried teens occurs in many cultures, with no stigma, feeling of being thrown away, or expectation of bonding.

I'd suggest a course in cultural anthropology.

So, you reject that peer-reviewed science I presented, huh?

re-read my responses -- and the articles.

What you call “draconian”, I call “wisdom”.

I've no doubt you do.
I'm sure the Taliban's treatment of women as perpetual children or even livestock seems wise to them, as well.

They're not caised by the sex.There may be religious-induced guilt from such activity, but guilt & shame can be felt by those engaging in promiscuous behaviors, without a religious stimulus behind it!

True. Social mores need not be religiously based, but the guilt and shame after promiscuous sex is not an intrinsic result of the behavior, but of the mores themselves. Change your attitude and the guilt and shame are removed. They're not caused by the sex.

How many children resulting from uncommitted unions, do you think, feeling unwanted & unloved, become a part of the criminal element in our societies?

A lot -- especially here in the US.
Plus the prospects for the mother, her hopes and dreams, are often scuttled; plus 20 years on the dole, can run into money.

But there's no reason sex, committed or not, should result in pregnancy, is there?

What if parents gave their daughters IUDs for their 16th birthdays? What if morning after pills were routinely kept in the medicine cabinet?
What if those earrings that you see in Mexico, with the three birth control pills embedded in a colorful plastic disc, became popular? (a triple dose of some contraceptive formulations will cause an abortion). What if lads actually used the condom they carry in their wallets?

For that matter, why should an accidental pregnancy result in a child at all?

Nobody cared about them, so they don’t care who they hurt! An attitude borne directly from the actions of two people, years ago, who just wanted to satisfy their urges.

Yes, all negative effects, but all easily avoided, as well. All a result of poor planning, poor hygiene or poor social mores, not sex, per se.

 

[Valjean]

Its starts with one. For example the mutation for blue eyes started with one, not a whole population

Yes, but it was inborn. It's variation, not evolution. It didn't evolve over the individual's lifetime, as was implied, nor is it likely to become generalized in the population unless it's sexually selected for.
Populations evolve, not individuals.

 

[We Never Know]

Yes, but it was inborn. It didn't evolve over the individual's lifetime, as was implied, nor is it likely to become generalized in the population, unless it's sexually selected for.
Populations evolve, not individuals.

"Populations evolve, not individuals"

That's not argument. My argument is it starts with one.

 

[We Never Know]

That's a claim. Where is the evidence and argument?

You also claimed to be a critical thinker, where's that evidence?

I'm thinking "IMOP means their opinion in some way.

If that's the case.....

Its their opinion, not a claim.

A claim is something a person proposes is true.
An opinion is something a person believes is true

 

[Trailblazer]

As Jehovah’s Witnesses, we follow Paul’s counsel he outlined in 1 Corinthians 5. We apply it to those who are unrepentant, though.

Years ago I got involved in sexual activity with a lady I wasn’t married to, but I was remorseful so I was not “disfellowshipped.” That’s the term we use.

However, later, after I married, my wife was removed / disfellowshipped from being a Witness, due to actions before we were married. Circumstances arose that forced her to admit them. (IOW, she had been trying to hide it.) The brothers arranged a meeting to talk with us, and reached the conclusion that she wasn’t truly sorry. She was disfellowshipped, but it was only for around 6 months….she was reinstated, after displaying “acts that befit repentance.” — Acts 26:20…..https://biblehub.com/acts/26-20.htm

She was actually d’f’d twice; the second time ended our marriage. But she eventually returned, both times, and she was reinstated. It took a lot of humility, for her to come back, twice!

Not only do we strive to keep the congregation clean…. we strive to help those erring, to see that their actions are not approved by God, they need to “set things straight”, and fix their relationship with Jehovah. If we didn’t take action, we would just be enablers, with dire consequences for them!

We take unrepentant immoral conduct seriously! As do Jehovah and Jesus!

IMO

In our worldwide congregation, the vast majority of those d’f’d / disfellowshipped, are for sexual immorality. Fortunately, many turn around and are reinstated.

*INFORMATIVE*

 

[Valjean]

"Populations evolve, not individuals"

That's not argument. My argument is it starts with one.

What point are you arguing? Me, I'm just pointing out basic facts; high school biology.

 

[muhammad_isa]

An 'illicit sexual relation' is simply one where consent is not given. How difficult is that to understand?

It is very easy to understand, but notoriously difficult to prove.

You said "That is why all of those who condemn sexual activity should just mind their own business."
Those in authority can't really mind their own business .. they have a job to do.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Maybe if sex were accepted without stigma, as ordinary human behavior, there would be no point in males assaulting each other 'like animals'.

??? Meaningless.

 

[Colt]

That's a claim. Where is the evidence and argument?

You also claimed to be a critical thinker, where's that evidence?

The evidence for finding God is in the heart of the seeker. It’s action you would need to take yourself.

You confuse being a critical thinker with being a carping critic of others, an atheist heckler on the road of life.

 

[Colt]

What is IMOP?

IMOP= Is Meatloaf Ok on Passover?

 

[Valjean]

??? Meaningless.

?????????????
Are you really not following?

 

[Colt]

Haven't millions of people, over thousands of years, sought God? Why was it only recently that the One God of all creation was discovered?
Why are there currently so many sincere seekers who've found some other God, or no God?

Good question, ours is an evolutionary world; human wisdom must evolve.

“With primitive man, even polytheism is a relative unification of the evolving concept of Deity; polytheism is monotheism in the making. Sooner or later, God is destined to be comprehended as the reality of values, the substance of meanings, and the life of truth.” UB 1955

 

[Valjean]

The evidence for finding God is in the heart of the seeker. It’s action you would need to take yourself.

You confuse being a critical thinker with being a carping critic of others, an atheist heckler on the road of life.

By evidence we mean objective evidence; evidence we can work with. "Evidence of the heart" is subjective; intangible to anyone but yourself. How are we to use personal feelings to test things; as an investigative modality?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's what generates our current illusion of mass.

How do you know that?

 

[muhammad_isa]

?????????????
Are you really not following?

There is nothing to follow.
A man is naturally jealous of a sexual rival.

If people go to clubs to fornicate, the result is trouble .. following "nature" does not
necessarily result in civilised behaviour.