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Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

Colt

Well-Known Member
By evidence we mean objective evidence; evidence we can work with. "Evidence of the heart" is subjective; intangible to anyone but yourself. How are we to use personal feelings to test things; as an investigative modality?

Spirituality is a subjective phenomenon while inexplicable faith is the only proof of inner religion. Scientific analysis of spirituality doesn’t work.

“ This profound experience of the reality of the divine indwelling forever transcends the crude materialistic technique of the physical sciences. You cannot put spiritual joy under a microscope; you cannot weigh love in a balance; you cannot measure moral values; neither can you estimate the quality of spiritual worship.”
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
All who seek God or Gods will be drawn to the One God of all creation. IMOP
How did you go about counting all the possible gods?
How did you know that the one you've identified as
the singular true god is correct? After all, different
religions attribute different traits to their gods.
If you follow the path defined by the wrong set of
traits, then you'd be even worse than an atheist
in they eyes of an angry vengeful omnipotent god.

The way of the atheist is to not know that which
is not knowable. I'll risk burning in the Christian
god's lake of fire, rather than betting with Pascal
on his wager.
 
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mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
How did you go about counting all the possible gods?
How did you know that the one you've identified as
the singular true god is correct? After all, different
religions attribute different traits to their gods.
If you follow the path defined by the wrong set of
traits, then you'd be even worse than an atheist
in they eyes of an angry vengeful omnipotent god.

That is in one sense an even wider problem, for what objective reality really is? And then we are in philosophy and not just religion or science.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
How did you go about counting all the possible gods?
How did you know that the one you've identified as
the singular true god is correct? After all, different
religions attribute different traits to their gods.
If you follow the path defined by the wrong set of
traits, then you'd be even worse than an atheist
in they eyes of an angry vengeful omnipotent god.

The way of the atheist is to not know that which
is not knowable. I'll risk burning in the Christian
god's lake of fire, rather than betting with Pascal
on his wager.
Humans think in concept frames by necessity.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Spirituality is a subjective phenomenon while inexplicable faith is the only proof of inner religion. Scientific analysis of spirituality doesn’t work.

“ This profound experience of the reality of the divine indwelling forever transcends the crude materialistic technique of the physical sciences. You cannot put spiritual joy under a microscope; you cannot weigh love in a balance; you cannot measure moral values; neither can you estimate the quality of spiritual worship.”
Agreed. the experience is subjective, and, while it may be powerful and seem self-confirming, it remains evidence only for the perceiver.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The evidence for finding God is in the heart of the seeker.
This is not an answer. This is an excuse many religious people say in debate because they have no actual answer to the question. What you say hre means: anything goes. It means the 9-11 hijackers can claim they had evidence of God and acted according to God's will. Can you say they 9-11 hijackers were wrong? No, because you claim evidence for God is in the heart of the seker, and offer no facts for anyone to distill dogma from truth.

I see right wingers often use "god" and religion as window dressing as camoflage of their lack of compassion and tolerance. I don't want to read about believrs talking about how others fall short of the mark when they are believers in Christ and have political views that are contrary to what Jesus taught. Fraud. If you want to convince me you as a right winger have found the truth in Christ, then live that truth. Words and belief are cheap.
It’s action you would need to take yourself.
Another claim that offers no evidence. I know what you will say, it's all up to the individual to decide, right?
You confuse being a critical thinker with being a carping critic of others, an atheist heckler on the road of life.
This is a complaint, not debate. It's just more griping about other using their reasoning skill in eligious debate that theists can't defend against. The only winning strategy for theists is to not engage with critical thinkers. That way Muslims and Christians can exist in their own little bubbles and not face the questing they avoid asking themselves.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
I'm thinking "IMOP means their opinion in some way.

If that's the case.....

Its their opinion, not a claim.

A claim is something a person proposes is true.
An opinion is something a person believes is true
That means it's still open to critique. It's not an exemption.

It's as if some folks think their opinions are the final word, as if they are entitled to end a discussion because "it's my opinion".

You give your opinion in a job interview, it ends there. You give it on a debate forum, it invites more discourse. It's your position, it may be rebutted.
 

Sgt. Pepper

All you need is love.
This is not an answer. This is an excuse many religious people say in debate because they have no actual answer to the question. What you say hre means: anything goes. It means the 9-11 hijackers can claim they had evidence of God and acted according to God's will. Can you say they 9-11 hijackers were wrong? No, because you claim evidence for God is in the heart of the seker, and offer no facts for anyone to distill dogma from truth.

I see right wingers often use "god" and religion as window dressing as camoflage of their lack of compassion and tolerance. I don't want to read about believrs talking about how others fall short of the mark when they are believers in Christ and have political views that are contrary to what Jesus taught. Fraud. If you want to convince me you as a right winger have found the truth in Christ, then live that truth. Words and belief are cheap.

Another claim that offers no evidence. I know what you will say, it's all up to the individual to decide, right?

This is a complaint, not debate. It's just more griping about other using their reasoning skill in eligious debate that theists can't defend against. The only winning strategy for theists is to not engage with critical thinkers. That way Muslims and Christians can exist in their own little bubbles and not face the questing they avoid asking themselves.

Winner frubal.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Shame and guilt isn’t all we’re talking about here…
There are other very apparent damaging repercussions, such as the unwanted children that come from these unions. Or the emotional harm that often occurs. Sexual activity is, for many, a way of bonding, and when one partner is left for another, feeling “used & thrown away”, mental & emotional dysfunction can arise.
But these aren't the reasons for the biblical admonitions against extramarital sex, and aren't relevant to the priesthood, who don't care if you wanted that baby and don't mind if you feel emotional distress for what they consider sin rightfully punished. Moreover, those don't need to be problems if one proceeds mindfully, which requires sexual education and access to contraception. For the mistakes, we have medical clinics.

The argument against extramarital sex from the church is religious and political, not based in what's best for people, which would be the humanist concern, and why it promotes no such values. The sexual don't with humanism is nonconsensual sex, which includes both forms of rape.
Just who do you think is the Great Harlot of Revelation chaps 17 & 18? The descriptions given, only fit one thing:
It is religious thinking, including it’s institutions, that is alienated from our Creator, Jehovah….. “in her was found the blood of…everyone
who has been murdered (Revelation 18:24)”; that would include Abel, who was murdered by Cain due to twisted thinking.
I'll take your word on the scripture. And I agree that religions can be alienating. My chief criticism of the Abrahamic faiths is its transference of the concept of the sacred from the universe to a personage living outside of nature who intends to destroy it, who controls the fates of souls after death, and who gives commandments.

The polytheistic alternatives like the pagan and dharmic religions don't do that to my knowledge. These more nature-oriented religions are not a problem in my estimation, and eliminating them wouldn't make the world a better place or generate better people. But I do believe that the Abrahamic religions are destructive. Promoting faith and discouraging education and critical thought is destructive. Teaching homophobia, atheophobia, and misogyny are destructive. Imposing theocratic tendencies on what were meant to be secular governments is destructive.

These ideas are the basis for antitheism, or the belief that we are better off without these ideas being promulgated.
How could religion be called a “Harlot / prostitute”? Any ideas?
I don't know what the New Testament writers meant, but I can give you my opinion. The Abrahamic religions are what can be called self-licking ice cream cones: "a process, department, institution, or other thing that offers few benefits and exists primarily to justify or perpetuate its own existence." They don't exist to benefit mankind or even their adherents. They exist to promote themselves and grow in influence.
The evidence for finding God is in the heart of the seeker.
Heart and gut are code for intuition, which is not enough for the critical thinker to justify belief.
“With primitive man, even polytheism is a relative unification of the evolving concept of Deity; polytheism is monotheism in the making. Sooner or later, God is destined to be comprehended as the reality of values, the substance of meanings, and the life of truth.”
On the road from polytheism to monotheism, man took a destructive detour as described above. Now, we need to undo that by having this deity evaporate away quality by quality until it is indistinguishable from nature as per your description, and then the concept of a god as a person ruling nature and beyond can be dropped, which concept is not only not needed to consider values or truth, but interferes with a rational approach to each.
Scientific analysis of spirituality doesn’t work.
It's a philosophical matter based in human psychology. When something becomes evident to the senses (evidence), the mind fleshes it in cognitively then affectively, that is, what does it signify about reality, and how do we feel about it. These latter feelings include several dysphoric feelings like anxiety, regret, grief, etc., but also positive experiences such as finding something beautiful or valuable. The spiritual experience is one of these. An informed experience of the night sky begins with an understanding of what that drop of starlight signifies about its source and the times and distances involved, as well as our connection to it as the source of the heavy elements that comprise our bodies and surroundings. And then comes the affective component - the spiritual experience, a blend of connection, belonging, mystery, awe, and gratitude.

And here is where the Abrahamic theist and this humanist part ways. He calls that experience an experience of God. I call it experiencing my mind, and find no value in speculating beyond that. What value is added by calling nature a god or a person? Isn't it sacred enough without that? And the justification? "I feel it in my heart," "My gut tells me it's true." Translation: "I have an intuition, a belief for which I can offer no evidence or give a supporting argument, that what I'm experiencing is a being of some sort out there rather than just the product of my mind, and that is evidence or proof enough for me. I have private evidence of a god."
 
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