Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[Valjean]

F1fan said: "You don't seem to think women have rights in a marriage."
You replied:

Of course I do..
The Qur'an lays them out clearly.

I question the verb. You're belief is deontological, based on divine command. Where's the thinking come in? I'm not seeing any critical analysis of objective evidence.

That is not a matter for the police.
In a society where sex before marriage is not acceptable, consent does not come into it.

How does that follow?

 

[Valjean]

Maybe the shame could result because of what is taught, I definitely can see that; but regarding the depression that follows, I don’t agree…

The course of mental health after miscarriage and induced abortion: a longitudinal, five-year follow-up study - PubMed

The course of psychological responses to miscarriage and abortion differed during the five-year period after the event. Women who had undergone an abortion exhibited higher scores during the follow-up period for some outcomes. The difference in the courses of responses may partly result from the...

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

But I appreciate your amicable responses.

We can always disagree without being disagreeable.

Have a good day.

Interesting study. I'm assuming both groups were screened to optimize psycho-social similarities at the outset,so the results reflect a comparable Norwiegen demographic, even so, the specific HADS Depression graph showed little variation.
I'm still curious as to why you'd think untoward effects of induced abortion would be innate, and unrelated to enculturated mores.

 

[Colt]

I'm not discontent. Where do you see evidence of discontent? We're in a debate forum, we debate, we submit ideas and claims for criticism. I assumed we were here to discuss them.

What beliefs, doctrine, moral code, or ritual are we advocating? What makes atheism, a lack of any of these, a religion?

Me, I'm into ideas, and when someone makes a fantastical claim sans visible support, I'm fascinated, and can't help questioning it. When the believers adduce evidence or proofs that are factually wrong, or illogical, pointing this out does not a religion make.

Atheist forums? What would an atheist have to discuss, unless a theist weighed in with some claim?

I have a problem with "self-evident," particularly when the claim is evident only to the claimant.

Activist atheists promote the faith in a godless universe.

 

[Polymath257]

No, it is not.
A woman should not be forced to marry. She may marry a person of her own choosing.
The bridegroom must give her her dowry, and her earnings are her own.

She may be a person of her own choosing only until marriage, apparently. She cannot choose to not have sex afterwards.

A husband MUST provide for her and any children.

And how about her? Does she get to do anything other than take care of the house? Does she get a career? Does she get to help provide for her family?

Sorry, but you are describing a horrid system that clearly oppresses women.

This is no different than the southern slave owners saying that slavery was best for those they enslaved because the masters took care of them.

At any time, if the wife is not happy with her husband,
he must free her and the marriage contract is terminated.

And how does she then take care of herself? Can she get a job?

 

[Polymath257]

I don't like answering simple questions just to be told that we are all rapists, or some such nonsense.

No, we are not ALL rapists. Only those who force others to have sex.

 

[Polymath257]

That is nonsense.
That is purely a case of you thinking you are right, and have the right to thwart the majority.

I see little difference in military dictatorships, that force their opinion on others and what you suggest.
I do not agree with Muslims, Christians or anybody.

else forcing their opinons of govt./law on others
in a non-democratic way.
I see that as hypocrisy. People are happy with democracy, as long as they agree with the laws it makes,
but otherwise they do not want democracy, it seems.

Do the women get a vote? Do they continue to get a vote? Is their voice listened to?

Can they refuse to have sex with their husbands without being forced to?

I'm sorry, but what you are describing is shockingly evil. It shows precisely the issue that religion supports evil systems that oppress others (often women).

So, the question from the OP now turns to whether religion leads to immoral behavior. At least in this case, it clearly does.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I don't like answering simple questions just to be told that we are all rapists, or some such nonsense.

Muslim men aren't all rapists. You are the only Muslim man I've ever heard say that spousal rape is okay.

 

[Polymath257]

I don't like answering simple questions just to be told that we are all rapists, or some such nonsense.

Maybe the simple questions are pointing out the evil of a religion that condones nonconsensual sex in a marriage. If the woman wants the sex, it is not rape. If she does not, then it is. Simple.

 

[muhammad_isa]

You are the only Muslim man I've ever heard say that spousal rape is okay.

..except that I never said that it was..
All you are doing here, is trying to deflect away from the main issue.

A society where sex before marriage is acceptable leads to more sexual crimes being committed against women,
that are difficult to prosecute.

 

[muhammad_isa]

If the woman wants the sex, it is not rape. If she does not, then it is. Simple.

That is not marriage .. that is selfish nonsense.
A man has a duty to his wife and a wife has a duty to her husband.
Adultery is out of the question.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Let's go back to where this conversation all started 18 pages ago..

@Valjean said "It seems to me that religion often separates moral behavior from consequences. It justifies evil with scriptural law".

..and now we are discussing woman's rights?
We have our opinion, and you have yours.

I have made it clear.
Sexual intercourse between a man and wife cannot be considered "illegal" .. end of.

It can, and is illegal if it involves rape.
You can't see how women's rights tie into morality, and more specifically, religious morality? All while you sit here telling us that a husband cannot possibly rape his wife because your religion says so? Good grief! I think it's safe to say that you've demonstrated almost perfectly what the problem is with justifying evil with scriptural law. So thanks for that.

 

[It Aint Necessarily So]

What reasons, then?

The reasons the assorted sexual prohibitions of the Abrahamic religions is based in the need to keep every fertile womb working and for paternity and inheritance purposes. Maidens are to marry at puberty, cannot refuse their husbands sex, and there are rules against divorce, homosexuality, masturbation, and birth control (rhythm method and early withdrawal originally, oral contraceptives, IUDs, and abortions later), and no extramarital sex.

You’re referring to Catholicism priesthood?

No, by the priesthood I mean all clergy including Catholic priests, such as pastors, ministers, rabbis, imams, etc..

I don't like answering simple questions just to be told that we are all rapists

Not a problem. People will answer for you according to your previous answers and what they understand likely causes that reluctance to respond.

Do men have the right to refuse sex if their wives demand it? The answer is, that it is not a criminal matter in law.

You were asked, "do married women have the right to refuse sex if their husband demands it?" Your answer is either yes or no, and you would have no reluctance writing "yes" were that your position. Instead, you deflected to a comment that doesn't try to answer the question.

In a democratic society, people are free to make laws .. be it from the Bible, the Qur'an or anything else.
In other words, if the majority want Islamic law, why is that not acceptable?

That was in response to, "do you think the Quran has authority over people who don't assign it meaning and significance?" Same thing. Your answer is either yes or no, and you would not be reluctant to answer no were that your position.

The evil is in a system where the marriage contract is relatively meaningless.
i.e. one has to ask permission of their partner before intercourse

You're saying that marriage is meaningless if it doesn't give the man the right to force sex on women. Is this a Muslim idea? Are you taught this by your religion, or did you arrive at this position by some other path?

I see little difference in military dictatorships, that force their opinion on others and what you suggest.

That was in response to, "Even if all but 10 people say its ok to rape, that is not enough to say it is ok." I think the dictatorship is in the home of the man who forces himself on an unwilling wife.

A society where sex before marriage is acceptable leads to more sexual crimes being committed against women

This is wrong, and fortunately, not part of humanist philosophy, which for the time is still the law of the land in the West. God forbid that the theocrats and their Handmaid's Tale vision ever gain the upper hand again.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

Muslim men aren't all rapists. You are the only Muslim man I've ever heard say that spousal rape is okay.

To be honest, I can't help but think of The Handmaid's Tale, both the TV series and the book, when reading his posts because of the disturbing attitude that he appears to have towards women and women's rights. His posts also remind me of the misogynistic attitude and male chauvinism I encountered in the early years of my marriage from my father-in-law, my husband's grandfather, and other conservative evangelical Christians (both men and women). I'm re-posting a previous post in another thread because it is relevant to what I am saying in this post. Click here to read the original post and the post I quoted.

As a former Christian and evangelical ministry leader, I can say that Christian men, particularly evangelicals, have done this, not non-Christian men. Some Christian men have reprimanded me for not submitting to what they saw as my husband's authority over me, and they have suggested that I should not hold a leadership position in any Christian ministry because doing so would imply that I have authority over men. I was told that, as a Christian woman, I was required to offer my husband sex anytime he desired it, and that if I did not submit to him, he had the right to force me. I've also been told that I should keep my mouth shut when my husband is speaking and never question or criticize him or other men. My husband's grandfather (an outspoken conservative Christian) even told him shortly after we married that he needed to "break my will" if he wanted a good marriage with a submissive wife. I consider myself fortunate that my husband has always treated me as an equal, despite his grandfather's and father's advice on how to interact with me.

My husband and I have been married for thirty years. Finally, I could share more stories of growing up in a conservative Christian family and then marrying into a conservative Christian family. I am, however, pleased to report that my father-in-law backed down after being threatened with estrangement if he didn't treat me with respect. He treats my daughters and I with respect and hasn't said anything about how he believes we should submit to my husband.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

This is wrong, and fortunately, not part of humanist philosophy, which for the time is still the law of the land in the West. God forbid that the theocrats and their Handmaid's Tale vision ever gain the upper hand again.

I didn't realize that you also mentioned The Handmaid's Tale until after I referenced him and his posts in my previous post.

 

[F1fan]

I don't like answering simple questions just to be told that we are all rapists, or some such nonsense.

No one asked you to confess to being a rapist, but it's odd that you implicate yourself without pressure. All we are asking is if you acknowldge that women have basic rights to bodily autonomy even if married. You seem to be ashamed to answer that, and that suggests you don't think women have this basic right.

 

[F1fan]

Activist atheists promote the faith in a godless universe.

So faith is a bad thing and should be avoided?

And feel free to demonstrate that the universe has any gods. Thus far none can be detected (whatever a god is) which means it is quite natural to consider the universe as god-free.

Explain how faith in a "god universe" is a sound mental assumption, and how it is an advantage to not auuming any gods in assessing reality.

 

[F1fan]

To be honest, I can't help but think of The Handmaid's Tale, both the TV series and the book, when reading his posts because of the disturbing attitude that he appears to have towards women and women's rights. His posts also remind me of the misogynistic attitude and male chauvinism I encountered in the early years of my marriage from my father-in-law, my husband's grandfather, and other conservative evangelical Christians (both men and women). I'm re-posting a previous post in another thread because it is relevant to what I am saying in this post. Click here to read the original post and the post I quoted.

As a former Christian and evangelical ministry leader, I can say that Christian men, particularly evangelicals, have done this, not non-Christian men. Some Christian men have reprimanded me for not submitting to what they saw as my husband's authority over me, and they have suggested that I should not hold a leadership position in any Christian ministry because doing so would imply that I have authority over men. I was told that, as a Christian woman, I was required to offer my husband sex anytime he desired it, and that if I did not submit to him, he had the right to force me. I've also been told that I should keep my mouth shut when my husband is speaking and never question or criticize him or other men. My husband's grandfather (an outspoken conservative Christian) even told him shortly after we married that he needed to "break my will" if he wanted a good marriage with a submissive wife. I consider myself fortunate that my husband has always treated me as an equal, despite his grandfather's and father's advice on how to interact with me.

My husband and I have been married for thirty years. Finally, I could share more stories of growing up in a conservative Christian family and then marrying into a conservative Christian family. I am, however, pleased to report that my father-in-law backed down after being threatened with estrangement if he didn't treat me with respect. He treats my daughters and I with respect and hasn't said anything about how he believes we should submit to my husband.

Your story is an example of how religion can allow the worst in humans to be justified. It doesn't mean that religion causes immoral behavior, but it certainly offers an excuse for immoral people to commit immoral acts in the name of God.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No one asked you to confess to being a rapist. All we are asking is if you acknowldge that women have basic rights to bodily autonomy even if married. You seem to be ashamed to answer that, and that suggests you don't think women have this basic right.

No .. it is a trick question..

Marriage is a contract between a man and a woman.
Both partners have a duty to each other.
For example, if a woman was not being sexually satisfied by her husband, she would be entitled to divorce.
In the same way, if a husband is not satisfied with his wife, he is entitled to divorce.

..so it is NOT that either partner cannot say "no" to the other, it is that it is not desirable to do so.
If either partner violates the other in a violent manner, it is clearly unacceptable.
It then becomes a matter for the police to decide if they can prosecute with ABH or GBH etc.

..and bringing the word "rape" into it, is just a distraction, imo.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So faith is a bad thing and should be avoided?

And feel free to demonstrate that the universe has any gods. Thus far none can be detected (whatever a god is) which means it is quite natural to consider the universe as god-free.

Explain how faith in a "god universe" is a sound mental assumption, and how it is an advantage to not auuming any gods in assessing reality.

Yeah, and it is unnatural to have faith in gods, right?
As for the bold, that is psychology and that is not natural science.

 

[F1fan]

No .. it is a trick question..

No it isn't.

Marriage is a contract between a man and a woman.
Both partners have a duty to each other.
For example, if a woman was not being sexually satisfied by her husband, she would be entitled to divorce.
In the same way, if a husband is not satisfied with his wife, he is entitled to divorce.

Irrelevant to the question which is about individual rights, namely a woman having the right to bodily autonomy. A marriage contract does not mean individual rights are set aside and authority given one party over another.

Now maybe is some thrid world Muslim theocracies where women's right are non-existant a marriage contract can mean that a woman is in essence property of the man. We are asking you as an individual with your own moral agency if you agree with that obsolete moral claim.

..so it is NOT that either partner cannot say "no" to the other, it is that it is not desirable to do so.
If either partner violates the other in a violent manner, it is clearly unacceptable.
It then becomes a matter for the police to decide if they can prosecute with ABH or GBH etc.

..and bringing the word "rape" into it, is just a distraction, imo.

More waffling to avoid saying what any decent person from a first wolrd nation would be ashamed of.

Why can't you just say that women have the right to refuse sex from their husband? What's the problem?