Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[muhammad_isa]

Are you suggesting that since it may be difficult to prove a crime has been committed (as in most rapes, I'd venture to say) that we should just overlook it and throw our hands up?

I'm saying we need to be realistic.
Marriage is a serious thing, that might involve children.
Divorce is undesirable, but it might be the only option if the marriage is irretrievable.
Getting the father of your child "locked up" might be the right thing to do in cases of ABH,
but in some cases it might be over-reacting.

What you have presented is an archaic and barbaric view of marriage where the wife is basically just a piece of property.

No .. you are projecting onto me your distaste for Islam, as you naturally want to paint it in a bad light.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Nonsense.

You are entitled to your opinion .. and I'm entitled to mine.

I live in the West, and can think of worse places to live,
but I see the wisdom behind the sanctity of marriage and the cutting off the hand of a career criminal.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I'm saying we need to be realistic.
Marriage is a serious thing, that might involve children.
Divorce is undesirable, but it might be the only option if the marriage is irretrievable.
Getting the father of your child "locked up" might be the right thing to do in cases of ABH,
but in some cases it might be over-reacting.

Rape is a very serious thing too. Much more serious than divorce, if you ask me.

No .. you are projecting onto me your distaste for Islam, as you naturally want to paint it in a bad light.

Nope, I'm going by the words you type to me. That's it. I actually work very closely with an Islamic man who would agree with my sentiments about your point of view on this.

I'm on the side that recognizes human beings' right to bodily autonomy. And you're claiming that's barbaric? I'd suggest you don't know the meaning of the word.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You are entitled to your opinion .. and I'm entitled to mine.

I live in the West, and can think of worse places to live,
but I see the wisdom behind the sanctity of marriage and the cutting off the hand of a career criminal.

... and no punishment at all for someone who serially rapes the person who should be able to trust them more than anyone.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I'm on the side that recognizes human beings' right to bodily autonomy..

That is your claim, that you are somehow more moral than what Islam teaches.
I have never said that it is OK for a woman to be violently assaulted by their husband.
It is being projected on to me with snidy questions,
about ladies not being able to say "no" to their husband in the bedroom.

It is the norm that mutual consent is required for intercourse, in a society where marriage is "optional".
In a society where marriage is NOT optional, the question of consent does not arise, in a legal framework.
Mistreatment of women can occur REGARDLESS .. it is how it is dealt with.

There has to be a balance between the rights of the sexes, otherwise you will find that men will "lose it",
and shoot everybody. Nobody wants to live in such a society .. do they?

It is not difficult to understand .. you just don't like it, but it's true.

 

[Polymath257]

Another stupid question.
I assume that a loving wife might forgive their husband on an occasion.
If he continually violates her, then I assume there is no marriage left.

Violates here??? When should she *ever* forgive him for that?? Should she also forgive him if he slaps her? How about if he beats her and leaves bruises?

Let me ask you a simple question. You talked about the duties of a husband and of a wife.

Is it the duty of the wife to have sex with her husband whenever he wants? or are there exceptions? if there are exceptions, give some examples.

I have 6 daughters .. do you think that I would like to see them unhappy?
Of course not.

Good, then don't encourage them to allow their husband to force them into sex.

The fact that the media portrays Islamic practices as evil, is evil itself.
Marriage is going out of fashion in the West [unless you are gay .. hmm]
Society is in the process of disintegrating.

I don't need a media portrayal. I just need what has been said in this thread.

If the religion excuses forced sex by a husband on his wife, then it is evil.

Nothing further needs to be said.

 

[muhammad_isa]

... and no punishment at all for someone who serially rapes the person who should be able to trust them more than anyone.

Oh really?
Nobody gets away with anything in the long run.
We all have to return to G-d, and He is the Fairest of All Judges.

 

[Polymath257]

That is your claim, that you are somehow more moral than what Islam teaches.
I have never said that it is OK for a woman to be violently assaulted by their husband.
It is being projected on to me with snidy questions,
about ladies not being able to say "no" to their husband in the bedroom.

It is the norm that mutual consent is required for intercourse, in a society where marriage is "optional".

Yes, of course.

In a society where marriage is NOT optional, the question of consent does not arise, in a legal framework.

Which means the legal framework needs to be changed so that it does arise.

Mistreatment of women can occur REGARDLESS .. it is how it is dealt with.

And, if that abuse is within a marriage, the husband goes free.

There has to be a balance between the rights of the sexes, otherwise you will find that men will "lose it",
and shoot everybody. Nobody wants to live in such a society .. do they?

So you are saying that men are so dangerous that they need to force someone into sex or they will go and shoot others?

Sorry, but such men need to be put safely behind bars.

It is not difficult to understand .. you just don't like it, but it's true.

No, I don't like it and i know it is not true. What you are describing is an evil system that oppresses women.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Good, then don't encourage them to allow their husband to force them into sex.

An insulting remark..

If the religion excuses forced sex by a husband on his wife, then it is evil.

G-d forgives whomsoever He wills, and punishes whomsoever He wills.
Islam does not excuse bad behaviour .. from a man OR a woman.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Which means the legal framework needs to be changed so that it does arise.

No, it does not.
If a woman does not want to sleep with her husband, she should not be married.

So you are saying that men are so dangerous that they need to force someone into sex or they will go and shoot others?

No.
I'm saying that their needs to be a balance between the rights of fathers and mothers.
Modern society is now putting power in the hands of women, more often than not,
and that is not healthy. Single parent families are dramatically increasing.

What you are describing is an evil system that oppresses women.

Your opinion .. I see differently.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, I don't like it and i know it is not true. What you are describing is an evil system that oppresses women.

I learned this from a skeptic, who claimed to be a scientist. Whether a person is a skeptic or not, stands and falls with their posts. Whether she/he/they is a scientist, is a bit harder.

You and anybody else don't know if it is true or not. It is different opinions as good or bad(evil) have no objective referents or properties. It is evil to you. It is not evil as such. It is evil to you. That is it. It has nothing to do with truth. It is emotions in the end.

 

[SkepticThinker]

That is your claim, that you are somehow more moral than what Islam teaches.

If Islam teaches that it's okay for spouses to rape each other, than yes, I am definitely more moral than what Islam teaches. Most everyone is.

I have never said that it is OK for a woman to be violently assaulted by their husband.
It is being projected on to me with snidy questions,
about ladies not being able to say "no" to their husband in the bedroom.

It's pretty weird that everyone seems to think you're saying that such a thing is a wife's "duty" then, isn't it?

It is the norm that mutual consent is required for intercourse, in a society where marriage is "optional".
In a society where marriage is NOT optional, the question of consent does not arise, in a legal framework.
Mistreatment of women can occur REGARDLESS .. it is how it is dealt with.

In any society, marriage or no marriage, consent for sexual intercourse is a requirement.

There has to be a balance between the rights of the sexes, otherwise you will find that men will "lose it",

There is. Neither spouse has the right to rape the other one.

Men "lose it" if they don't have sex? They should jerk off then, I guess, if their wife isn't in the mood. Problem solved. Sounds like a nonsense excuse anyway.

and shoot everybody. Nobody wants to live in such a society .. do they?

It is not difficult to understand .. you just don't like it, but it's true.

So you think people shoot up societies because their wives don't want to have sex with them?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If Islam teaches that it's okay for spouses to rape each other, than yes, I am definitely more moral than what Islam teaches. Most everyone is.
...

You know the drill. That is a positive claim and requires evidence.

 

[Polymath257]

No, it does not.
If a woman does not want to sleep with her husband, she should not be married.

So you think that just because she is married, she should *always* want to sleep with her husband whenever he wants?

Really?

No.
I'm saying that their needs to be a balance between the rights of fathers and mothers.
Modern society is now putting power in the hands of women, more often than not,
and that is not healthy. Single parent families are dramatically increasing.

And part of a healthy balance is to not allow a husband to force a wife into having sex if she does not want to.

Your opinion .. I see differently.

Which is a perfect example of how religion distorts moral judgements, making evil deeds into acceptable ones.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

So you think that just because she is married, she should *always* want to sleep with her husband whenever he wants?

Really?

And part of a healthy balance is to not allow a husband to force a wife into having sex if she does not want to.

Which is a perfect example of how religion distorts moral judgements, making evil deeds into acceptable ones.

How do you make moral judgements?

 

[SkepticThinker]

You know the drill. That is a positive claim and requires evidence.

Rape violates one's bodily autonomy and therefore their well-being. Rape is immoral.
As already noted.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Rape violates one's bodily autonomy and therefore their well-being. Rape is immoral.
As already noted.

So it is a fact that we have bodily autonomy or what?

 

[muhammad_isa]

In any society, marriage or no marriage, consent for sexual intercourse is a requirement.

No, it is not according to law.
The marriage contract itself, is the consent.
Naturally, one cannot obtain "consent" to violently assault somebody.

 

[Polymath257]

No, it is not according to law.
The marriage contract itself, is the consent.

No, it is not. Nor should it be. You cannot consent now for sex at a later date.

You are essentially saying that the woman has no say after she gets married as to whether she wants to have sex.

Naturally, one cannot obtain "consent" to violently assault somebody.

OK, so the husband that has sex with his wife in spite of her not wanting to *at the time* does not have consent and is thereby a rapist.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, it is not according to law.
The marriage contract itself, is the consent.
Naturally, one cannot obtain "consent" to violently assault somebody.

Well, in your opinion.