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Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
..Let me give you a scenario. Let me know who you think is doing wrong and why.

A man and his wife are at home one evening. He says he would like to have sex and she says that she doesn't feel like it that night. He gets angry and pins her down and forces her to have sex.

1. Did he mistreat her?
Yes.

2. Did she mistreat him?
No, not as you have written it. I don't know how long this has been going on for,
or why "she doesn't feel like it".

3. Is this something the law should be concerned about?
Possibly .. but first of all, she should go to family members, and tell them what has happened.
More details are needed.
Why did this man suddenly snap, and do that?

4. Did either of them disrespect the marriage? If so, who?
G-d knows .. more details are needed.

Now, compare this to the following scenario:

Two people who have known each other as friends decide to spend the night together. They talk about what each would like and how it would affect their relationship and decide to have sex. Both enjoyed themselves.

Can you honestly say that the second couple should be put to death... ... ...
On the face of it, it seems barbaric.
The problem is, that sexual relationships cause trouble, as it is irresponsible to enter a woman and walk away.
..like babies being conceived out of wedlock .. and irate boyfriends and girlfriends etc.

It looks OK on the face of it, whilst murder doesn't.
Nobody wants to live in a society where people go around murdering each other,
..but it is a slippery slope .. such a society gets more violent as time goes by.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That is what you perceive.
It is what all others perceive as well, and despite your evasiveness the many questions posed to you has worked to reveal quite archaic interpretations of the Quran that even your fellow modern Muslims don't agree with.
I see that in countries that have Islamic law, men and women are generally happily married and bring up their children well.
Of course you will "see" that. Do you see it in Iran and other Islamic nations that are having rebellions against the sort of archaic ideals you seem to have? I posted some stories about women being tortured and executed for minor infractions, and that suggests women are suppressed and controlled. How would anyone know these women live in terror? How would they know their are women in the world that have human rights?
I see in the West, that marriages fail regularly, and the single parent family is becoming the norm.
Children grow up with more more social problems in one parent families.
Yet you seem to think raping your wife is superior. Your system executes people for adultery. Not exactly open to freedom.
The best way to control yourself, is to keep away from bad women.
Thats avoidance because you lack self-control. More evidence of weak Muslim men. People who have control can be around temptation and remain on course.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That is what you perceive.
It is what all others perceive as well, and despite your evasiveness the many questions posed to you has worked to reveal quite archaic interpretations of the Quran that even your fellow modern Muslims don't agree with.
I see that in countries that have Islamic law, men and women are generally happily married and bring up their children well.
Of course you will "see" that. Do you see it in Iran and other Islamic nations that are having rebellions against the sort of archaic ideals you seem to have? I posted some stories about women being tortured and executed for minor infractions, and that suggests women are suppressed and controlled. How would anyone know these women live in terror? How would they know their are women in the world that have human rights?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Gravity pulled them. It caused them to form from the collapsing solar nebula, and it holds them in orbit. Planets are falling into the sun while experiencing motion in a direction perpendicular to the line connecting the planet and star, and so never actually fall in
Holds them, yes. We see that. But we’ve never observed where, after gravity pulled on an object, it established a stable orbit for it! Come on!

Even intelligent humans, putting up communication satellites, don’t just throw them up there without some control of its inertia, and expect gravity to just step in!
We know quite a bit about gravity. We know what we need to know about it to predict its actions and make it work for us.
Yes. And that takes intelligence.
Many have been discredited.
“Discredited” is not “disproven”.

I know you view the existence of a Creator has been discredited. But it hasn’t been disproven.

There have been a few explanations of facts over the years which were at one time supported by a consensus of experts, discrediting other more accurate theories due to a prior paucity of data, or just an inadequate understanding / interpretation.

Here are 4 imminent researchers whose theories were discredited, but later their theories were validated:


Empirical evidence are facts we observe. But many times, the interpretations of those facts - the why’s and how’s - are inaccurate.


Take care.
 
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Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Your so- called "flood", though
of course you choose to pretend otherwise
Then tell us, how come we find preserved animals deep within the Permafrost? How did they get in there? If there were just bones, I could see…. But their flesh in thousands of cases has been preserved.

No slow-moving ice age did it.

And it’s all fresh water, so no asteroid impact on the oceans did it.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Traditionally, a marriage contract implied consent.
If either partner no longer wants to give consent, they should terminate the marriage.

I know modern secular law is different. Marriage is no longer in fashion.
No, traditionally, a marriage contract implied ownership. Consent of the woman was irrelevant.

We know better now.
 

muhammad_isa

Veteran Member
Yet you seem to think raping your wife is superior. Your system executes people for adultery. Not exactly open to freedom.
You do not mention anything about single parent families becoming the norm.
..and you also speak as if scores of people will be killed each day for adultery.
It simply is not the case.

..whereas in the West, adultery is acceptable, I quote from @Polymath257 "sex is just one nice way people can interact with each other."

Thats avoidance because you lack self-control. More evidence of weak Muslim men. People who have control can be around temptation and remain on course.
That is just arrogance, imo. Men are men .. full-stop.
Men behaving badly, is not confined to Muslims.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I do not sympathize with either man or wife
Not credible. You sympathize with the husband until he commits a violent act that leaves bodily evidence. You have no sympathy for the wife who is a sex slave. You suggest that she keep quiet and "honor" her husband.
I would like to know why they do not love each other any more. ..and please don't say it is because the man forced sex upon her, because I don't
think that very likely
Why not say that? We're talking about a man who has raped his wife. You don't think that it's likely that that is part or all of the reason she doesn't love him? You don't seem to know anything about women outside of Muslim culture, and I would suggest you don't understand your own women very well if you think that they could love a husband that abuses and disrespects them. They can be docile and submissive, but that's neither love nor happiness.
I think we have different moral values. You do not think that a wife should honour and respect her husband.
Yes, we have different moral values. I think a man should love and respect his wife, and that a woman being raped by her husband is being dishonored by him, has no duty to him, and should leave him, take the children, file for divorce, and call the police.
imprisoning your husband for his virility? No.
Imprisoning him for his violence and criminality. Controlling himself is his responsibility.
Muslims like me, who do not think that a man should mistreat his wife.
Why do you keep posting this? Have you not understood yet that your definition of mistreatment is meaningless to your audience? Of course you believe a man should be allowed to mistreat his wife just as long as he doesn't leave marks, but you consider this being a good husband worthy of love, honor, and respect. I consider him an unconvicted criminal.
What's the point of marriage, eh? It can't protect women .. only secular law can do that, right?
Yes, secular law is the proper recourse for a woman when her husband is abusing her.
Sexual relationships should not be casual.
You must mean for yourself. Your opinions about how others ought to live their lives are of no value to them. I make those decisions for myself. At times, casual sex was part of my life, which included dating many women over many years. That stopped during my Christian years, which included a marriage, but resumed years later when that ended, I left the religion, and began dating again. It's how I met my present wife of 33 years.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Even intelligent humans, putting up communication satellites, don’t just throw them up there without some control of its inertia, and expect gravity to just step in!
Planets naturally capture passing objects and make moons of them. No intelligent oversight is required.
we’ve never observed where, after gravity pulled on an object, it established a stable orbit for it!
I'm not sure what you're saying here - that we've never witnessed a planet capture a natural satellite that then orbited it? You're probably correct. Did you think that that was significant? What does it tell you?
"Discredited” is not “disproven” I know you view the existence of a Creator has been discredited. But it hasn’t been disproven.
I don't think that the existence of a creator can be called discredited. It's a combination of lack of sufficient evidence to believe that one exists and the absence of a need for a god to account for anything or to do anything makes the belief unhelpful. But the comment was directed at the myths of Genesis and Exodus, which have been discredited by the sciences.
You only say this because you are atheist, and that causes you to oppose anything remotely truthful about God.
No. I resist belief by faith, and not just belief in gods. And nobody has any knowledge about any god that deserves to be called truth. What you have are fervently held but insufficiently justified beliefs
The atheist simply will not allow himself to consider anything that would threaten his desire to not believe in God.
The critical thinker doesn't (and generally can't) decide what to believe. That's how faith works. Pick an idea you like, believe it, and call it truth. That's what this atheist will not allow himself to do.
This is moral excellence, since it has the family's best interest, and strong families make strong communities. Do you disagree? If so, please explain why.
By families I assume you mean families raising minor children. No, I do not think they make strong communities. Strong communities are the result of a culture of tolerance, a common vision, an adequate economy, and the like. I wish them luck, but such families have little effect on me or my life. My family and household are my wife and me and our dogs, we're very happy, and we don't take our moral advice from holy books or any other source that our consciences.

In any event, you didn't address what I identified as moral failings in the teachings of Jesus, namely that Jesus says marriage to a divorcee is adultery, a man who finds a woman attractive has committed adultery with her, and that one must cut off his hand or pluck out his eye if it offends. Here's the humanist version: Marriage to a divorce is perfectly fine, finding strangers sexually alluring is perfectly fine, and never pluck out eyes or cut off hands unless medically necessary.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
A woman comes to the police and says "I told my husband 'no' but he carried on anyway.
I want him locked up for good".
..and the police is obliged to say "yes maam .. if we can prove you said no"

A stupid law, which is necessary in a society without obligatory marriage.
It opens up a can of worms.
It's the exact same law that applies to any person anywhere who claims they've been raped. No special law is required. Of course, you'd have to first acknowledge that married people can actually be raped, which it seems you don't.

Your response doesn't actually answer my question though, which was:
How does "allowing" women to report abuse from their husbands "encourage corruption" unless you imagine most (all?) women are corrupt in the first place?
We have to assume that the man is to blame for the breakdown of the marriage...
..because the wife says so.
We're talking about a specific act in which the husband has forced himself upon his wife against her will.
..and not only that, but he should be imprisoned, because his wife got him so angry that he
forced himself on her.
And here we go again with the victim blaming. She got him so angry when she said she didn't feel like having sex right how, that he just couldn't control himself and had no choice to but rape her! See, it's her fault! These types of attitudes are the ones that perpetuate rape culture. No, it's not someone's fault that they got raped simply because they didn't feel like having sex at the moment.
..and we all know why we are talking about RAPE..
..because that is the subject you want to talk about.
It's what we've been talking about for pages and pages now.
If you can fool people into thinking that marriage is no protection for a woman, it disappears.
Protection that includes being raped? That is no protection at all.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
To be honest, it is difficult for me not to judge all Muslim men as abusive male chauvinist pigs after reading muhammed_isa's posts in this thread and after helping a former Muslim battered woman leave her abusive husband. She was abused by her husband before she converted to Christianity, but her situation became even more dire after she converted. She was beaten within an inch of her life by her husband and other male members of his family. I helped to take care of her at a shelter for battered women, and I went to court with her for emotional support. While participating in this thread, I've also been reminded of the news I've read about Islamic countries like Afghanistan, where women are gravely mistreated and legally oppressed. I feel empathy for these women. As I said earlier in this thread, I remembered the following news while I was reading what I regard as appalling posts by muhammad_isa.

Harry Potter actress' family charged over kill threats

Harry Potter actress's brother admits attacking her

Harry Potter actress Afshan Azad 'beaten and abused'

Harry Potter Actress' Brother Jailed After Attacking Her
There's that great protection offered by being stuck in one of these amazing marriages! :oops:Makes me sick.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I do not sympathize with either man or wife..
I would like to know why they do not love each other any more.

..and please don't say it is because the man forced sex upon her, because I don't
think that very likely .. the last straw .. maybe.

I think we have different moral values.
You do not think that a wife should honour and respect her husband.

In Islam, if a woman cannot honour her husband, she should terminate the marriage contract.
..and not wait until such a time that they are abusing each other.
I know it's easy to say, and hard to do in practice.
..but imprisoning your husband for his virility? No.
No! Not for his "virility." For his action of committing RAPE.
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Then tell us, how come we find preserved animals deep within the Permafrost? How did they get in there? If there were just bones, I could see…. But their flesh in thousands of cases has been preserved.

No slow-moving ice age did it.

And it’s all fresh water, so no asteroid impact on the oceans did it.
I can't tell if you do it on purpose, but you
are quite consistent about asking questions
so vague / non specific that there is no
possible answer.
How deep is deep?
You want one explanation for every organism
buried at every depth?

This is a " win" for you?

The thing about " slow moving" ice age
doesn't even make sense. An ice age does not
move.

Animals freeze every winter.

The thing about comets?
What nut thinks comets has anuthing to
do with frozen squirrels?

Or that permafrost is somehow about " flood"?

Such is the level of thniking behind your
beliefs.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
You do not mention anything about single parent families becoming the norm.
And what solution do you offer? Just 8th centuy morals where people are executed for having sex. A framework that tolerates abuse and rape of wives. Awesome set of familial attitudes you have there. In your view what happens if a dad commits adultery, and you execute him, and the woman? There's a sudden single family in your perfect, Godly system.

There are many problems in the USA and elsewhere for sure, and to my mind that is an issue of greed and political unfairness. The solutions are certainly nothing you promote which is a "gun to your head because I represent my absent God".

And this is the funny thing, if your interpretation of God and the Quran wanted humans to behave in a more rigid way why did it create us with so many emotions? Even you acknowledge that men can't control their sexual urges to a degree that they can't respect their wives. That's God's fault. I know you Abrahamics try to cover for your (interpretation of) God but it's your books and your interpretations, so you have o choice given your God is consistently absent.
..and you also speak as if scores of people will be killed each day for adultery.
It simply is not the case.
Killing them will surely reduce the number who want that freedom. The rest will just have to deal with their urges, unlike husbands who want to force sex on their wives.
..whereas in the West, adultery is acceptable, I quote from @Polymath257 "sex is just one nice way people can interact with each other."
It is frowned upon, and can cause families a great deal of sadness. But execution? That is NOT acceptable. Your values are out of whack.
That is just arrogance, imo. Men are men .. full-stop.
Men behaving badly, is not confined to Muslims.
So Islam doesn't offer men any advantage? Buddhism does. And therapists can help people resolve their temptations to cheat by examining feelings. You offer a gun to their heads. And you pull the trigger if they cheat. That is criminal and immoral in the 21st century.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Good. So you admit that a husband forcing his wife to have sex against her will is mistreatment.
No, not as you have written it. I don't know how long this has been going on for,
or why "she doesn't feel like it".
Maybe she had a long day and simply doesn't feel like it. Why does it matter?
Possibly .. but first of all, she should go to family members, and tell them what has happened.
That seems unreasonable to me. What if the rest of the family is a long distance away?
More details are needed.
Why did this man suddenly snap, and do that?
Maybe he had a hard day at work. Why does it matter?
G-d knows .. more details are needed.
Like what?
On the face of it, it seems barbaric.
And I would say that it looks barbaric because it is barbaric.
The problem is, that sexual relationships cause trouble, as it is irresponsible to enter a woman and walk away.
..like babies being conceived out of wedlock .. and irate boyfriends and girlfriends etc.
Being irresponsible is always a problem, whether sex is involved or not. Using birth control is part of being responsible.

Irate boyfriends and girlfriends are the result of insufficient communication between all parties involved. And, if they become violent, that is on them, not those merely having sex.
It looks OK on the face of it, whilst murder doesn't.
Indeed. And it looks OK upon further reflection while murder does not.
Nobody wants to live in a society where people go around murdering each other,
..but it is a slippery slope .. such a society gets more violent as time goes by.

And that is partly because people cannot seem to control themselves when things don't go the way they want.

I would point out that having money is risky: it inspires envy and potential violence. That doesn't mean we should ban money. Furthermore, the risks from money are far greater than those from people having even casual sex. So, if you want to deal with a real social problem, look into inequalities of income and poverty.
 
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