Does Atheism Lead to Immoral Behavior?

[muhammad_isa]

So tell me, what is the stance in islamic law about an abused woman having a witness in the bedroom to the abuse she receives?

I have discussed that subject for many pages.. I am not going round in circles with this nonsense.

I am trying to discuss the institution of marriage, and why people do not think its immoral for people to have sexual intercourse outside of marriage.

I know when the change happened. The contraceptive pill has changed the nature of society.

 

[Polymath257]

Keep marriage optional, yeah.

I'm curious what you mean here. You have been describing the western view of marriage as being 'optional'.

Is it *required* that everyone get married in Islam? Is it mandatory to be married?

Because, if it is not, then marriage is optional.

Believers can't agree with that.

We now have a society, which accepts sex outside marriage, and a marriage can
consist of 2 men or 2 women.
Nothing Holy about it any more. It's just an accessary.

No, it is a legal way of defining a household. It is a way for two people who love each other to publicly declare that love and to have societal support for their relationship. It is a way to secure a number of benefits that being married conveys, such as survivor and visitation rights. It helps with insurance, ownership of property, and many other aspects of life.

Marriage is far, far more than simply being about sex. In fact, sex is a pretty trivial aspect of marriage. Far more important is the relationship between the people and the societal support of that relationship.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Marriage is far, far more than simply being about sex. In fact, sex is a pretty trivial aspect of marriage..

..so why should "society" [the public purse] support it then?
What benefits are there for society from two people who "love each other" and sex is trivial?

 

[Polymath257]

I have discussed that subject for many pages.. I am not going round in circles with this nonsense.

I am trying to discuss the institution of marriage, and why people do not think its immoral for people to have sexual intercourse outside of marriage.

No, I do not. In fact, I find it somewhat irresponsible for a couple to NOT have sex before getting married.

I know when the change happened. The contraceptive pill has changed the nature of society.

Yes, good contraception allowed far more freedom in this. And that was a good thing.

 

[Polymath257]

..so why should "society" [the public purse] support it then?
What benefits are there for society from two people who "love each other" and sex is trivial?

It is a benefit to society to have stable households.

Nobody said the sex is trivial. Just because it can happen outside of marriage doesn't mean the sex inside of marriage is meaningless. Hopefully the married people care for each other, which definitely improves the quality of the sex. Sex is also good for bonding and sharing.

 

[ChristineM]

I have discussed that subject for many pages.. I am not going round in circles with this nonsense.

I am trying to discuss the institution of marriage, and why people do not think its immoral for people to have sexual intercourse outside of marriage.

I know when the change happened. The contraceptive pill has changed the nature of society.

You have avoided the fact that a woman needs twice the witnesses as a man (a woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man) several times when i have mentioned it. In fact, you have deliberately ignored my question to the point of editing the text out of any reply you condescended to give.

And what we (you and i) were discussing is...

Most "real life bedroom abuse" is carried out by violent criminals.
Strangely enough, Islamic law does not tolerate these kind of people

However i think your absence of answer is answer enough in its self, thank you.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Yes, good contraception allowed far more freedom in this. And that was a good thing.

..and how can you be so sure?
Has this "experiment" occurred before in the history of mankind? No.
You merely assume that this artificial way of life will improve things.

Fiddling with nature has a horrible habit of turning against us. Time will tell.
..and perhaps its already telling .. young people do not seem to be sure
what their position in society really is .. women wanting to be men, and men wanting to be women.
What the **** !

 

[ChristineM]

You merely assume that this artificial way of life will improve things.

Its done a lot to reduce unwanted pregnancy, personally i think that's a improvement

 

[muhammad_isa]

Nobody said the sex is trivial.

..whatever..

 

[Polymath257]

..and how can you be so sure?
Has this "experiment" occurred before in the history of mankind? No.
You merely assume that this artificial way of life will improve things.

Technology advances allowing for more freedom to choose. That is a good thing in and of itself.

Fiddling with nature has a horrible habit of turning against us. Time will tell.
..and perhaps its already telling .. young people do not seem to be sure
what their position in society really is .. women wanting to be men, and men wanting to be women.
What the **** !

No, both simply want to be human (which they are). Which genitals they have is usually irrelevant.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Its done a lot to reduce unwanted pregnancy, personally i think that's a improvement

That is not the point I was making.

I am saying that the fact that women were able to reduce the chance of getting pregnant,
encouraged promiscuity. This in turn has chnged the nature of society, and the attitude
towards marriage.

 

[Polymath257]

That is not the point I was making.

I am saying that the fact that women were able to reduce the chance of getting pregnant,
encouraged promiscuity. This in turn has chnged the nature of society, and the attitude
towards marriage.

And yet, the vast majority of people still get married. The value isn't from being allowed to have sex. The value is from the caring that the people involved have for each other.

Is that a change? Yes. It has changed from a primarily economic relationship to one that is more based on emotions and mutual respect. It means that men no longer get to dictate what their wives can do. It means that women can earn their own money and have the freedom that comes from that.

These are all very good things.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Which genitals they have is usually irrelevant.

..might as well have our babies in test-tubes, in that case.
Why are so many people today "born in the wrong body"?
It's a social phenomena, and not a physical one.

 

[ChristineM]

That is not the point I was making.

I am saying that the fact that women were able to reduce the chance of getting pregnant,
encouraged promiscuity. This in turn has chnged the nature of society, and the attitude
towards marriage.

But it was the point i was making

I do not think you know much about society prior to the birth pill. Promiscuity has always been flourished though back street abortion with its dangers was rife.

 

[muhammad_isa]

And yet, the vast majority of people still get married.

Maybe it depends which country you live in.
The trend is that less and less people are getting married in the UK.
That might change. Most Muslims get married.

It means that women can earn their own money and have the freedom that comes from that.

Economic freedom? Is that what makes women happy?
I doubt it .. not in the long run, in any case.

Money never makes you happy. One always wants more.
..and society now expects women to retire the same age as men, and
are expected to work and support themselves.

 

[muhammad_isa]

I do not think you know much about society prior to the birth pill. Promiscuity has always been flourished though back street abortion with its dangers was rife.

I am aware of that..
I live in a devolved Kingdom, and am aware of its history.
"commoners" had a poor education, and "common law" treated them differently to
the educated gentry.

 

[Polymath257]

..might as well have our babies in test-tubes, in that case.

Most people prefer the old fashioned way. But test tubes are a possibility for those who can't.

Why are so many people today "born in the wrong body"?
It's a social phenomena, and not a physical one.

Well, people with the same conditions in the past were ignored or killed off. So that seems like an improvement as well.

 

[Polymath257]

Maybe it depends which country you live in.
The trend is that less and less people are getting married in the UK.
That might change. Most Muslims get married.

And yet, many people are still wanting marriage rights. Funny that.

Economic freedom? Is that what makes women happy?
I doubt it .. not in the long run, in any case.

Economic freedom is one aspect. Just like with men, it isn't everything, but it allows for much more freedom in other ways.

Money never makes you happy. One always wants more.
..and society now expects women to retire the same age as men, and
are expected to work and support themselves.

Sure, women are expected to be adults and work just like men. They are not children to be taken care of. They are independent, full adults with the same rights and responsibilities.

Or, at least, they should be.

Once again, the specific genitals someone has should have NO bearing on whether they can get a job, be heard in court, buy a house, play tennis, etc. Pretty much the *only* place where specific genitals are required is making children. And let's face it, that isn't something that should be done continuously.

And when it comes to taking care of children, men are just as qualified (in general) as women. They just refuse to take responsibility too often.

 

[Polymath257]

I am aware of that..
I live in a devolved Kingdom, and am aware of its history.
"commoners" had a poor education, and "common law" treated them differently to
the educated gentry.

Sounds like the 'commoners' had about the same deal as women in Islamic societies.

 

[Sgt. Pepper]

That is not the point I was making.

I am saying that the fact that women were able to reduce the chance of getting pregnant,
encouraged promiscuity. This in turn has chnged the nature of society, and the attitude
towards marriage.

Are you implying that you oppose birth control?