Does being against Zionism make you anti-semetic?

[Rainbow Mage]

Well does it? It seems I've heard from many religious Jews that it does.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

*bump

 

[Rainbow Mage]

What does Zionism have to do with being Jewish even? Does being against Zionism suddenly make one not Jewish?

 

[xkatz]

No. Look at Neutrei Karta.

Also, Zionism is a political ideology whereas Judaism is a religion/religious belief. There are Christian Zionists in fact.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

I agree XKatz, and btw, I support Nuterei Karta even though I'm not religious, and I'm also a member of a few secular anti-Zionist groups like- American Jews against Zionism.

 

[arimoff]

I agree XKatz, and btw, I support Nuterei Karta even though I'm not religious, and I'm also a member of a few secular anti-Zionist groups like- American Jews against Zionism.

good for you, and?

 

[Levite]

I hate to have to be the one to say it, but the Neturei Karta are not only a tiny fringe group, but they are self-hating Jews. Which is not to say that every Jew who is not a Zionist is self-hating! I have known a number of Satmarer Hasidim who, being Satmarers, are certainly anti-Zionist, but who would never, ever espouse violence against other Jews (which the Neturei Karta have and do), or run to the enemies of the Jewish people merely to undercut the State of Israel (which the Neturei Karta are infamous for doing). Likewise, I have several good friends who are non-Zionists, but would also never think of espousing violence against other Jews.

Personally, I think it is possible, but very, very difficult to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. I have known very few people who were able to do it, and they walk a fine line.

The vast majority of anti-Zionists I have encountered step over that line from time to time at best, and at worst use anti-Zionism as a fair political cloak for their anti-Semitism.

I think it is eminently reasonable and defensible for a person to violently disagree with Israel's political or military choices. I can even understand people who feel that Israel should withdraw to '67 borders and leave the Palestinian territories-- I think that's a naive, foolhardy, attitude that's a recipe for a bloodbath, but I can understand where it comes from. I don't pretend to understand those people who just don't think Israel should exist. I get that the Satmarers are p i s s e d off because they think Zionism is treading on the toes of messianism, but short of that kind of religious fundamentalism, I don't understand what other anti-Zionists think it is about the Jewish People that makes them unique in somehow not meriting their own homeland and free, democratic state. I've heard a whole bunch of universalist, white-guilt, post-nationalist academic rhetoric, but no real arguments of any sense or reason.

So, can there be anti-Zionists who aren't anti-Semetic? Sure. Are there many? No. Of those who exist, are most of them either confused, naive, or kidding themselves? Apparently.

 

[Breathe]

So, can there be anti-Zionists who aren't anti-Semetic? Sure. Are there many? No. Of those who exist, are most of them either confused, naive, or kidding themselves? Apparently.

I'm inclined to agree to some extent.

Sure, there can be and are people who are opposed to Zionism who are not anti-Semites, who even love Jewish people and have good relations with them, probably some are even Jewish themselves and/or married to Jewish people. I'm sure there are probably some people who are PRO-Zionism who are anti-Semites at the same time. (that sounds so weird :areyoucra)


Unfortunately though, many people are "anti-Zionists" merely as a way of being anti-Semitic (or the term anti-Jewish if you prefer) and still being able to get away with it in public. Politically correct anti-Semitism, or something? :sarcastic


Just my $0.02.

 

[Smoke]

Well does it? It seems I've heard from many religious Jews that it does.

In theory it's possible to be an anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. It's just not very common. The Satmarer Hasidim are opposed to the secular state of Israel for various reasons, but there are still Satmarers who live in Israel, and Satmarers from New York visit there.

I support Nuterei Karta even though I'm not religious

I'd think twice about that. They're Holocaust deniers who have supported terrorist attacks on other Jews.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Well does it?

Of course not. Nor does it make one an idiot. But it clearly precludes neither possibility.

 

[LuisDantas]

good for you, and?

At some point it must be asked if the existence of Israel as a Jewish State is worth all the trouble that it brings to, well, very much everyone.

It is one thing to care for and respect the Jewish people and culture; it is something else entirely to insist that Israel should be a Jewish state.

How many people have died or otherwise been rendered miserable as a consequence of Zionism? What good does really come out of Zionism, when all is said and done?

Many Jews seem to live perfectly safe and happy lives outside Israel. They don't have to deal with armed conflicts or anything of the sort. They don't become so used to violence that they see no problem in destroying Palestinian's homes. They don't participate in arms races, they don't live under constant threat in a warlike mindset. They don't feel that they must choose between killing or being killed.

Surely there is room for improvement in the current situation.

 

[Caladan]

At some point it must be asked if the existence of Israel as a Jewish State is worth all the trouble that it brings to, well, very much everyone.

It is one thing to care for and respect the Jewish people and culture; it is something else entirely to insist that Israel should be a Jewish state.

Curious mind-set. its all good for the French to have France, for the Japanese to have Japan, for Arabs to have more than two dozen states, but the Jews should remain in the status of a minority in other nations without self determination. this is a great example of people unknowingly espouse anti-Semitism under the guise of 'anti-Zionism'

 

[LuisDantas]

I don't understand what other anti-Zionists think it is about the Jewish People that makes them unique in somehow not meriting their own homeland and free, democratic state. I've heard a whole bunch of universalist, white-guilt, post-nationalist academic rhetoric, but no real arguments of any sense or reason.

I've rarely ever thought of any people as deserving its own homeland or state, myself. Maybe it has something to do with being Brazilian as opposed to Israelite, I really don't know. We Brazilians are, quite frankly, glorified and self-important invaders.

I'm not sure that having one's own state is even a good thing to begin with. On the one hand that provides a degree of autonomy, on the other it may breed dificulty in dealing with others.

 

[LuisDantas]

Curious mind-set. its all good for the French to have France, for the Japanese to have Japan, for Arabs to have more than two dozen states, but the Jews should remain in the status of a minority in other nations without self determination. this is a great example of people unknowingly espouse anti-Semitism under the guise of 'anti-Zionism'

Not in my case, at least. You're misreading me. I don't particularly like the existence of separate nations at all. I'm in fact fairly anti-nationalistic by principle.

 

[Caladan]

Not in my case, at least. You're misreading me. I don't particularly like the existence of separate nations at all. I'm in fact fairly anti-nationalistic by principle.

Im very happy for you, that you are anti-nationalistic. but since my grandfather's family in his country of birth was murdered almost in its entierty for their Jewish heritage, I think im quite OK with having a nation of my own, nationalism or not. the idea of living as an unpopular minority in another nation doesn't sound so appealing.

 

[Revoltingest]

In theory it's possible to be an anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. It's just not very common.

Really? I find it extremely common. Zionism has high costs associated with the land theft & consequence carnage.
(I know, I know....they say it isn't "theft", but I don't buy it. When I was a real estate broker, I always vetted a
deed's signatures. No one has produced such a transfer document with God's on it.)

I don't even know what the modern definition of "anti-semitism" is anymore. Is it "hating", "disliking", or the commission of a minor slight?
Does one have to feel this way about several or all of'm? What about the inclusion of non-Jewish arabs in "Semites"? That might make
Zionists anti-semites too. It seems that "anti-semite" is a weaponized word, with no real use other than to demonize others, eg, Rahm
Emanuel. It reminds me of "homophobia". Anyone at odds with gay folk is not just a hater, but they have a clinical psychological disorder
denoted by the epithet. Both words seem no more than highly charged insults which are particularly fell because there is no equivalent retort.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Personally, I think it is possible, but very, very difficult to be anti-Zionist without being anti-Semitic. I have known very few people who were able to do it, and they walk a fine line.

Oh I see Levite. So you are merging Zionism and the Jewish identity? Why don't you just go the next step and call non-Zionists Jews not Jews?

 

[LuisDantas]

Im very happy for you, that you are anti-nationalistic. but since my grandfather's family in his country of birth was murdered almost in its entierty for their Jewish heritage, I think im quite OK with having a nation of my own, nationalism or not. the idea of living as an unpopular minority in another nation doesn't sound so appealing.

Of course. But the bottom line is, does nationalism help or hinder in solving those problems?

Other than in the military sense, is the existence of Israel of any help to the Jewish people? I don't think it makes them any more respected or liked, at the very least. Even the military security aspect is arguable at best.

 

[Rainbow Mage]

Caladan why do Jews need our own country, and is a country we have to steal from it's inhabitents worth having? What happened in Germany is terrible, and I lost family in the Holocaust as well, but that's no excuse for Zionism and the attrocities those who espouse the doctrine commit on the Palestinians.

 

[Caladan]

Of course. But the bottom line is, does nationalism help or hinder in solving those problems?

Other than in the military sense, is the existence of Israel of any help to the Jewish people? I don't think it makes them any more respected or liked, at the very least. Even the military security aspect is arguable at best.

I'm not saying anything about nationalism, I'm talking about self determination. and as a Jew Israel is a great solution for me, what would be the alternatives? living in a nation where my family was murdered and property lost? or living in a failed North African nation? so yes I dare say that Israel has been of much help to many Jews, who could otherwise continue to live as a compromised minority in other nations.
as for being 'liked', millions of Jews have been murdered, millions of others have lost their families and property, trust me, we are way past the trying to be liked phase.
the equation is very simple. the state of Israel was established more than 60 years ago, it has withstood a great ammount of challenges from a harsh and uncompromising region and was still able to emerge from it as a nation with impressive traits in technology, science and medicine in an area which is a failed region at large. it has created a diverse social landscape which goes against the traditional opressive nature of the nations around it, with a multi-party political system as opposed to the dictatorships around it, who like Israel have also been crafted in modern times.