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Does Christian faith require belief in brainless minds?

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
In my life, I have witnessed the changes in cognition--consciousness, awareness, moods, emotions, memory, reasoning ability, etc.--that can occur with brain damage. I saw its effects in my father after he came out of a coma after an automobile accident, and I saw it in my mother as she gradually succumbed to minor strokes and aging factors that damaged her brain. These experiences and others have led me to recognize the intimate relationship between the condition of a physical brain and mental cognition. Indeed, there is no mental function that seems unaffected by the physical condition of a brain.

Now the brain-body connection has religious implications. Virtually every religion on Earth assumes that the mind or spirit can exist independently of the physical body. Belief in immaterial ghosts, spirits, and demons, seems to flourish in just about every culture. In traditional Christian culture, the soul is somehow supposed to survive death and come to reside in heaven, hell, purgatory or some spiritual realm where non-physical beings can exist. God himself is thought not to have a physical brain (except perhaps among Mormons). So the idea of a mind that can reason, remember things, feel emotions, etc., is theoretically possible even without a brain. The ability of the mind to survive death seems fundamental to Christian doctrine, as it is to so many non-Christian doctrines.

Here is my claim: if it is true that a human mind requires a physical brain in order to exist, then Christianity is probably a false religion. Minds must be able to survive death in order for Christian doctrine to make sense. Do you agree? If not, then what is meant by "everlasting life"?

Now, a consequence of this theory is that all evidence that suggests a mind cannot exist independently of a physical brain is evidence against Christianity (and other religions that have a brainless mind requirement). Lack of evidence that minds can exist independently of physical brains is further lack of evidence that the Christian faith is a reasonable belief system.

To my knowledge, the only evidence that we have for minds existing indpendently of human brains is a report of either an out-of-body (OOB) experience or near-death-experience (NDE), but neither of these types of experience has been shown to be compelling evidence because they appear to be related to the cutoff of oxygen to a living brain that subsequently recovers.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
In my life, I have witnessed the changes in cognition--consciousness, awareness, moods, emotions, memory, reasoning ability, etc.--that can occur with brain damage. I saw its effects in my father after he came out of a coma after an automobile accident, and I saw it in my mother as she gradually succumbed to minor strokes and aging factors that damaged her brain. These experiences and others have led me to recognize the intimate relationship between the condition of a physical brain and mental cognition. Indeed, there is no mental function that seems unaffected by the physical condition of a brain.

Now the brain-body connection has religious implications. Virtually every religion on Earth assumes that the mind or spirit can exist independently of the physical body. Belief in immaterial ghosts, spirits, and demons, seems to flourish in just about every culture. In traditional Christian culture, the soul is somehow supposed to survive death and come to reside in heaven, hell, purgatory or some spiritual realm where non-physical beings can exist. God himself is thought not to have a physical brain (except perhaps among Mormons). So the idea of a mind that can reason, remember things, feel emotions, etc., is theoretically possible even without a brain. The ability of the mind to survive death seems fundamental to Christian doctrine, as it is to so many non-Christian doctrines.

Here is my claim: if it is true that a human mind requires a physical brain in order to exist, then Christianity is probably a false religion. Minds must be able to survive death in order for Christian doctrine to make sense. Do you agree? If not, then what is meant by "everlasting life"?

Now, a consequence of this theory is that all evidence that suggests a mind cannot exist independently of a physical brain is evidence against Christianity (and other religions that have a brainless mind requirement). Lack of evidence that minds can exist independently of physical brains is further lack of evidence that the Christian faith is a reasonable belief system.

To my knowledge, the only evidence that we have for minds existing indpendently of human brains is a report of either an out-of-body (OOB) experience or near-death-experience (NDE), but neither of these types of experience has been shown to be compelling evidence because they appear to be related to the cutoff of oxygen to a living brain that subsequently recovers.
So you would be willing to admit of a lack of evidence against the hypothesis that "brainless minds" perceive without identification?

That is something I haven't ruled out.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Firstly, what is the brain besides a vessel to contain energy? The brain itself IS energy. Second, what is the mind or consciousness that is held within that brain besides another form of energy? This energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only change form. When our bodies and brains cease to work, that energy of consciousness in not destroyed, it only changes from a physical to a non-physical form. Even scientists can agree that all energy is vibrational and is "animate". There is some force (energy) which causes this. It is to me this energy is consciousness. Therefore, all things that exist which have energy are also conscious and have what could be called "animate conscious spirit energy". It is my opinion that "consciousness" can exist without a physical brain.
 
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DallasApple

Depends Upon My Mood..
Firstly, what is the brain besides a vessel to contain energy? The brain itself IS energy. Second, what is the mind or consciousness that is held within that brain besides another form of energy? This energy can neither be created nor destroyed, only change form. When our bodies and brains cease to work, that energy of consciousness in not destroyed, it only changes from a physical to a non-physical form. Even scientists can agree that all energy is vibrational and is "animate". There is some force (energy) which causes this. It is to me this energy is consciousness. Therefore, all things that exist which have energy are also conscious and have what could be called "animate conscious spirit energy".

One time I tried to say this?? And someone told me then maybe I would be a light bulb when I died...

Love

Dallas
 

Wandered Off

Sporadic Driveby Member
If a soul (or whatever is said to survive physical death) retains our thinking ability and memories, I can't figure out why we'd need the cognitive part of our brains in the first place.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
So you would be willing to admit of a lack of evidence against the hypothesis that "brainless minds" perceive without identification?

That is something I haven't ruled out.

Ozzie, I don't quite understand your response. What does it mean to "perceive without identification"?
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
If a soul (or whatever is said to survive physical death) retains our thinking ability and memories, I can't figure out why we'd need the cognitive part of our brains in the first place.

Maybe just some place to store it I guess. All energy changes form and takes new form. The physical bodies or brains we have now happened just as a result of another change or transformation of energy. How does the energy of what makes rain "remember" how to turn back into clouds and form more rain after it hits the ground? How do birds with such small brains know how to fly south for the winter? How does the energy of what makes diamonds "remember" how to make diamonds? I believe that all energy has some form of memory. Even our own energy has this conscious memory.
 

Ozzie

Well-Known Member
Ozzie, I don't quite understand your response. What does it mean to "perceive without identification"?
I can't answer that for you fully, as it is based on personal experience. As an extreme example, imagine your cognition stripped away, and one or more perceptual pathways interrupted/distorted by brain damage.
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
I can't answer that for you fully, as it is based on personal experience. As an extreme example, imagine your cognition stripped away, and one or more perceptual pathways interrupted/distorted by brain damage.

OK, thanks. Since I don't have a clear grasp of what you were trying to say, I'm afraid that I can't give a coherent response. The concept of "cognition" itself is vague. We use it to define a whole collection of cognitive functions that tend to be associated with physical structures in the brain. Damage to the brain can cause complete loss of different kinds of mental function. Younger brains, having more neurons, appear able to recover from injuries by "wiring around" the damaged areas.
 

Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
Yeah well Im vain...So can I be a bon fire????

And is my energy restrained to ONE light bulb? Or can I be in a chandelier with many lights???

Love

Dallas

We are each like one "birthday candle" on this great "cake" we call existence. The "spirit" or energy of what you might call God is within us all.:D
 

Copernicus

Industrial Strength Linguist
Seems like a pretty good argument for having a resurrection body.

That is certainly a possibility. The idea would be that the physical brain would be copied into a new body, I suppose, but the idea begins to fall apart when one asks exactly what would be copied. Our brain changes quite a bit as we age, losing much of its mass of neurons. Is the mass of lost neurons restored? Are lost memories recaptured and false memories replaced with true ones? For the idea of resurrection to be made to sound attractive, we would all want to be reborn into healthy young bodies, but what about the recovery of lost knowledge and the correction of false knowledge? That would have to be manifested physically, as well, in a resurrected body. What would that mean in terms of the damaged Alzheimer victim's mind? Would the lost neurons get put back in the exact same configuration they were in before the onset of Alzheimer disease? What about memories and new things learned after the disease had commenced? Ultimately, the problem is that the brain, which generates your mind, is not a fixed object. Its structure is extremely dynamic over a lifetime.

And then we have the problem that God can think sort of like us. He has moods and desires that he acts upon. He has memories. Yet God has no brain. So it would appear that we do not really need physical brains to think, yet that is what we appear to need in order to have any useful mental function.
 
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Runewolf1973

Materialism/Animism
That is certainly a possibility. The idea would be that the physical brain would be copied into a new body, I suppose, but the idea begins to fall apart when one asks exactly what would be copied. Our brain changes quite a bit as we age, losing much of its mass of neurons. Is the mass of lost neurons restored? Are lost memories recaptured and false memories replaced with true ones? For the idea of resurrection to be made to sound attractive, we would all want to be reborn into healthy young bodies, but what about the recovery of lost knowledge and the correction of false knowledge? That would have to be manifested physically, as well, in a resurrected body. What would that mean in terms of the damaged Alzheimer victim's mind? Would the lost neurons get put back in the exact same configuration they were in before the onset of Alzheimer disease? What about memories and new things learned after the disease had commenced? Ultimately, the problem is that the brain, which generates your mind, is not a fixed object. Its structure is extremely dynamic over a lifetime.

And then we have the problem that God can think sort of like us. He has moods and desires that he acts upon. He has memories. Yet God has no brain. So it would appear that we do not really need physical brains to think, yet that is what we appear to need in order to have any useful mental function.


Perhaps the brain is like the gateway from the physical to the non-physical. We don't need physical brains to think, but we do need them to send signals to move the rest of what constitutes our physical bodies. The mind (thought) is perception, the brain is what responds to that perception. :shrug:

How do the individual cells in a persons body know what to do with themselves? Perhaps they also "perceive" things in some way or another. It seems that all energy has some form of "thought" or "consciousness" that makes it change and do things. I wonder if to a single cell in our body, we are like God.
 
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