Does evolution have a purpose?

[YoursTrue]

You think playtypii are ugly??

Now that you mention it, I'm looking at a picture on the cover of a book about evolution, and I'm thinking it's pretty ugly, too.

 

[Valjean]

You know what Einstein said about “The Old One” not playing dice, right?

And he was wrong, wasn't he? Quantum theory was just too counter-intuitive even for a mind used to the weird.

Super-determinism is a philosophical concept born from logical extension of cause and effect; the butterfly theory writ both large and (very) small. Every phenomenon, every event, every outcome of every process has it’s genesis in the complex web of interacting entities that forms the universe, all behaving in accordance with immutable laws. As such, the conditions that made a particular effect or result inevitable, themselves arose from inevitably occurring conditions initiated from the moment of the Big Bang.

For practical purposes, a roll of the dice -- or a litter of pups -- is random chaos.

 

[Valjean]

I don't follow you about the fantasy, and appeal to magic. Intentionality simply has to be programmed into nature somehow. Maybe something like a Brahman reality exists.

What facts are you referring to? Science can observe extrinsic behaviour, and would not able recognize intrinsic nature of organisms.

What is this intrinsic nature? Do you mean physiology or biochemistry?

If it's programmed in, like gravity or time, how is it intentional? Gravity keeps a lake in its basin, but I don't see any intention on the part of the lake, the basin, or anything else. I see natural forces acting blindly and automatically.

 

[osgart]

What is this intrinsic nature? Do you mean physiology or biochemistry?

If it's programmed in, like gravity or time, how is it intentional? Gravity keeps a lake in its basin, but I don't see any intention on the part of the lake, the basin, or anything else. I see natural forces acting blindly and automatically.

The function of a hand is far different than gravity or time. The hand is made to manipulate objects, and the eyes to see such objects. The hand and eye are not blind and automatic. Human functions serve purposes to the human. There's intelligent forms to living creatures. If blind and automatic forces had their full say then these functional purposes would never become.

You are telling me eyes and hands serve no purpose when they have a sophisticated working to their functions. They have efficiency, and convenience. Along with mind they orchestrate actions of the human will. There is orchestration to these functions.

Intrinsic nature means that the inner workings have aboutness and operate according to a specific nature. We can only observe nature from the outside in, not from the inside out.
For example: If consciousness was not experienced first hand then there would be no scientific way of ever discovering it. Consciousness is an intrinsic property of living creatures; only detectable because we experience it and are apart of it. Personal identity and sense experience are intrinsic. Extrinsically we can only observe the animated actions of consciousness. You can't observe the inner workings of somebody else's private consciousness and experience.

So who's to say that there isn't intrinsic nature's to existence? Perhaps there is proto consciousness that is ubiquitous in nature, and has a private something it is to be it.

Life could be commonplace in the universe and not an purely incidental one time event. The senses cannot tell the whole story of existence.

 

[Valjean]

The function of a hand is far different than gravity or time. The hand is made to manipulate objects, and the eyes to see such objects. The hand and eye are not blind and automatic. Human functions serve purposes to the human. There's intelligent forms to living creatures. If blind and automatic forces had their full say then these functional purposes would never become.

You are telling me eyes and hands serve no purpose when they have a sophisticated working to their functions. They have efficiency, and convenience. Along with mind they orchestrate actions of the human will. There is orchestration to these functions.

How hands and eyes came to be, and and to function as they do, is known and explainable -- with no need for intentional design.

Consciousness is a horse of a different color. It's hard to measure. We can't even say what it is or how it came about, but just because we don't currently understand it doesn't justify an appeal to magical/mystical "explanations."

 

[rational experiences]

If scientists human stated are highest self first. Thesis science. Apply science. Get irradiated due to cause effect. Lose consciousness....

Heavy metal mind effect. Mind behaviour depravity due to heavy metal effect.

Doesn't the human self doing all quoting claim highest self man consciousness first. Lost consciousness re evolving consciousness by self explanation of all details?

So as cooling changes natural by non science machine history over a thousand years since. Beyond re irradiation last caused earth attack star wandering....
to who he redeveloped consciously back into....the egotist himself.

 

[Truthseeker]

If we believe the Bible narrative, it could lead to the conclusion that God had man in mind when He made the heavens and the earth. According to the creation outline in Genesis, He made conditions just right for man to live on the earth. What's to come after man is brought to perfection (Revelation 21 and more) is something to look forward to.

I'm not going by the Bible narrative.

 

[YoursTrue]

I'm not going by the Bible narrative.

OK, let's not go by the Bible narrative. From what we see around us, the Earth is in danger of being destroyed by man. Or rather, man is in danger of destroying itself by destroying its habitat. It seems that certain types of turtles are in danger of extinction because the oceans are warming up only 2 degrees, but it's enough apparently to kill off the turtles. It's a big mess. People are killing each other -- governments are set up to kill others they disagree with -- there are big companies that will hardly stop polluting the earth -- so as far as evolution of mankind goes, things have evolved to the point mankind will destroy itself and the surroundings.

 

[Mock Turtle]

That is an interesting concept you mention -- that function in humans, at least, is on a higher order than the body parts. Because I was thinking of humans that have difficulties in thinking (use comatose persons, dementia or low IQ persons as examples, who need a lot of help to continue living) would be exceptions to the rule. And, I suppose, that is true of animals, too, though according to the Bible, man was to have the animals in subjection. So animals and humans seem to be necessary to each other. Maybe. Not that it is in practice now as it was supposed to have been, where God told Adam to have the animals in subjection. That was to change in essence once things got bad in the Garden. And, of course, the consciousness of man as different from beings is highly debateable among pure evolution believers. (Genesis 1:26)

The subjection of non-humans, as per Bible, could be seen just as a necessary step to make clear than we humans are exceptional, and hence can do what we will with these other lifeforms. So just another indication that this religion was a product of human minds rather than coming from God, given that God produced all the many creatures and only so many are of use to humans, with many living as if we were there for them to eat or to infect. Or God just liked variety and gave the rest to us as a problem to solve. None of which makes any sense to me - but humans evolving along with all other life does.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I have made no creationist postulations, because I am not a creationist.

Then what are you arguing about?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

You know what Einstein said about “The Old One” not playing dice, right?

Yes and do you know why he said that?
He said that because he was stuck in a pre-quantum physics paradigm and felt uncomfortable with quantum physics.

In other words: he was wrong. The metaphorical god he was referring to DOES play dice with the universe.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Yes and do you know why he said that?
He said that because he was stuck in a pre-quantum physics paradigm and felt uncomfortable with quantum physics.

In other words: he was wrong. The metaphorical god he was referring to DOES play dice with the universe.

Einstein is often cited as having been wrong about quantum physics, because his original contention that hidden variables would eventually account for all the ‘spooky’ stuff, did not transpire in the manner he predicted. He was persuaded to shift his position, something he was never afraid to do.

The philosophical conundrum posed by the random vs deterministic debate is as yet unresolved, in quantum physics as in metaphysics.

 

[RestlessSoul]

Then what are you arguing about?

I wasn’t, you were. I was intrigued by some of the issues being touched on, and sought to broaden the discussion.

As I said earlier, I hadn’t realised this thread was in an Evolution vs Creationism sub forum. Didn’t even know there was one.

 

[Firelight]

Does evolution have a purpose?
-If yes what is it?
-If no, why not?

One of the major purposes of the Theory of evolution that I have witnessed, is for some of its devout followers to become extremely incensed when someone disagrees with any part of it.

 

[wellwisher]

Einstein is often cited as having been wrong about quantum physics, because his original contention that hidden variables would eventually account for all the ‘spooky’ stuff, did not transpire in the manner he predicted. He was persuaded to shift his position, something he was never afraid to do.

The philosophical conundrum posed by the random vs deterministic debate is as yet unresolved, in quantum physics as in metaphysics.

The whims of the gods position or the dice based universe, goes back to ancient times. When ancient reason broke down, this was explained by the whims of the gods adding wild cards. Science had reached the Age of Enlightenment and the Age of Reason by the 16th century. However, it was starting to slide backwards to the whims of gods approach, in the early 20th century. Einstein did not agree with this approach but felt it was regressive to science.

Casino science, as I like to call it, is useful, especially for mass production, since it allows a generic black box approach. One does not need to know what is inside any black box. This robotic approach allows more bodies to work on mass production science, since it requires less individual thinking and reasoning skills, and more adherence to a set of procedures. If you took casino science way from the biological sciences it would become a ghost town. With it, it employs millions. Robots are easier to train.

The main reason it was accepted by science was due to the development of nuclear weapons before and after WW2. The young science of nuclear Physics was given more resources than any area of science had ever seen in history. These scientists were under extreme pressure to produce, due to wartime needs, the existential threat to the world, and the urgent push by the military brass. They needed a buffer, where if they're reasoning broke down, or they got detoured or even ahead of themselves by experiments, the whims of the gods did it. This would become the template for fast passed mass production science.

An important question to ask is, why do we have a quantum universe? We know the universe is based on quantum principles, but why? What practical good does this bring to the table? Before the quantum universe was recognized, the universe was modeled with continuous math functions. We would draw smooth curves. Quanta are not continuous, but have gaps between. The gaps in a quantum universe, are designed to save time relative to the continuous function universe.

For example, if steps A and B are both needed before C can appear, a continuous universe has infinite options around both steps A and B; infinite sided dice. A quantum universe has finite sides due to the gaps; finite sided dice. Fewer options, means that steps A and B will occur sooner even if we throw dice. Quantum saves time in terms of evolution. It makes the universe more deterministic since things get funneled faster.

The difference between random and deterministic thinking, is random thinks in the gaps between quanta; black box, while deterministic thinks in terms of substance; quanta, which saves time.

If you think about objects like dice, coins and cards, often used to explain and model statistics and randomness, these are all manmade objects; factory instead of natural. For example, the difference between the cards in a deck is based on the subjective pictures or labelling, and not any type of physical potential. The King does not weigh more or is larger than the two, but we are told it is better by some manmade convention. Random tries to place a synthetic overlay onto the natural world; uses cards to define the quantum gaps in continuous functions. The gaps in a quantum universe are not possible; zero odds, yet statistics give this finite odds, albeit small; subjective overlay in the gaps.

If you look at nature, such as the hydrogen atom, it has quantum energy levels. This natural dice does not roll equally on all sides, under any given set of conditions. The sides are weighed; loaded dice, based on the ambient energy. This natural object would appear to cheat in the casino of science, and may not be allowed to play since this dice is loaded and the result is always predictable.

 

[RestlessSoul]

The whims of the gods position or the dice based universe, goes back to ancient times. When ancient reason broke down, this was explained by the whims of the gods adding wild cards. Science had reached the Age of Enlightenment and the Age of Reason by the 16th century. However, it was starting to slide backwards to the whims of gods approach, in the early 20th century. Einstein did not agree with this approach but felt it was regressive to science.

Casino science, as I like to call it, is useful, especially for mass production, since it allows a generic black box approach. One does not need to know what is inside any black box. This robotic approach allows more bodies to work on mass production science, since it requires less individual thinking and reasoning skills, and more adherence to a set of procedures. If you took casino science way from the biological sciences it would become a ghost town. With it, it employs millions. Robots are easier to train.

The main reason it was accepted by science was due to the development of nuclear weapons before and after WW2. The young science of nuclear Physics was given more resources than any area of science had ever seen in history. These scientists were under extreme pressure to produce, due to wartime needs, the existential threat to the world, and the urgent push by the military brass. They needed a buffer, where if they're reasoning broke down, or they got detoured or even ahead of themselves by experiments, the whims of the gods did it. This would become the template for fast passed mass production science.

An important question to ask is, why do we have a quantum universe? We know the universe is based on quantum principles, but why? What practical good does this bring to the table? Before the quantum universe was recognized, the universe was modeled with continuous math functions. We would draw smooth curves. Quanta are not continuous, but have gaps between. The gaps in a quantum universe, are designed to save time relative to the continuous function universe.

For example, if steps A and B are both needed before C can appear, a continuous universe has infinite options around both steps A and B; infinite sided dice. A quantum universe has finite sides due to the gaps; finite sided dice. Fewer options, means that steps A and B will occur sooner even if we throw dice. Quantum saves time in terms of evolution. It makes the universe more deterministic since things get funneled faster.

The difference between random and deterministic thinking, is random thinks in the gaps between quanta; black box, while deterministic thinks in terms of substance; quanta, which saves time.

If you think about objects like dice, coins and cards, often used to explain and model statistics and randomness, these are all manmade objects; factory instead of natural. For example, the difference between the cards in a deck is based on the subjective pictures or labelling, and not any type of physical potential. The King does not weigh more or is larger than the two, but we are told it is better by some manmade convention. Random tries to place a synthetic overlay onto the natural world; uses cards to define the quantum gaps in continuous functions. The gaps in a quantum universe are not possible; zero odds, yet statistics give this finite odds, albeit small; subjective overlay in the gaps.

If you look at nature, such as the hydrogen atom, it has quantum energy levels. This natural dice does not roll equally on all sides, under any given set of conditions. The sides are weighed; loaded dice, based on the ambient energy. This natural object would appear to cheat in the casino of science, and may not be allowed to play since this dice is loaded and the result is always predictable.

So is it possible that the gaps in the quantum universe are in fact functions of our perception? Gaps appearing due to the limitations of the human mind, rather than the limitations of instruments in a laboratory, that is...

In The Order of Time, Carlo Rovelli talks about the human mind having access only to a given collection of variables, and suggests that it is the particularity of these variables which frames our perspective of the universe, and specifically our perception of time as a linear process. The implication seems to be that if we had the capacity to sense and to process all the information around and within us, the universe would look very different and time would have no particular directional flow.

Rovelli uses the pack of cards analogy, to illustrate the particularities that define a state of high entropy. Arguing that a shuffled deck has as many particularities as an unshuffled one, but that these are not as easily recognisable to the human eye.

 

[Valjean]

One of the major purposes of the Theory of evolution that I have witnessed, is for some of its devout followers to become extremely incensed when someone disagrees with any part of it.

Purpose? How is becoming incensed a purpose?
The theory of evolution has no more purpose than evolution does. It's just a theory, an explanation of process based on observation and testing.

I've never seen a believer of evolution become incensed by disbelief. We may become exasperated by a non-believer's obtuseness or ignorance; even annoyed if he persists in ignoring observed facts and repeated explanations, but disbelief doesn't threaten our ego-integrity the way science seems to pose a psychic threat to whose world is founded on myth.

 

[Peter Stanley]

Obvious it is to spread life in diversity where every organism is important to the environment playing a role and can adapt over time from a bacteria to an elephant nothing is wasted in nature . It overwhelmingly springs up everywhere with purpose even in unthinkable locations in great diversity - sounds like something that only God could do.
If there is an end game and we are the final product intelligence was give so life could escape the planet and spring up else where in the universe.Intelligence would be required to leave the planet
You have to consider all life not just humans we completely rely on all other life forms to exist its a symbiotic relationship that needs to be treated with respect.We would have to take it with us if we leave the planet.
5-7 pounds of you are actually the bacteria in your body you need to digest food and survive,

Of course you would have to believe in the theory of evolution first.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Obvious it is to spread life in diversity where every organism is important to the environment playing a role and can adapt over time from a bacteria to an elephant nothing is wasted in nature . It overwhelmingly springs up everywhere with purpose even in unthinkable locations in great diversity - sounds like something that only God could do.
If there is an end game and we are the final product intelligence was give so life could escape the planet and spring up else where in the universe.
You have to consider all life not just humans we completely rely on all other life forms to exist its a symbiotic relationship that needs to be treated with respect.
5-7 pounds of you are actually the bacteria in your body you need to digest food and survive,

Of course you would have to believe in the theory of evolution first.

That's a lot of bacteria! Sounds like a pretty good reason not to believe in evolution to me

 

[Truthseeker]

OK, let's not go by the Bible narrative. From what we see around us, the Earth is in danger of being destroyed by man. Or rather, man is in danger of destroying itself by destroying its habitat. It seems that certain types of turtles are in danger of extinction because the oceans are warming up only 2 degrees, but it's enough apparently to kill off the turtles. It's a big mess. People are killing each other -- governments are set up to kill others they disagree with -- there are big companies that will hardly stop polluting the earth -- so as far as evolution of mankind goes, things have evolved to the point mankind will destroy itself and the surroundings.

Yeah, it looks like a mess right now. I have hope that mankind will rise from the ashes.