Does God establish all governments?

[Jaymes]

Just as I was being subjected to the news while getting a plate for dinner, I heard someone quote this verse:

Romans 13:1 - Let every soul be subject to the authorities that are above [him]. For there is no authority except from God; and those that exist are set up by God.

Is there a "limit" to this? Does it include elected governments? Are there authorities throughout history or today that were not set up by God?

 

[sparc872]

That is a verse I have had issues with as well. Thanks for bringing it up, I am interested in seeing what christians have to say about it.

 

[Mike182]

frankly, i would disagree with Paul here, because to say the Governments are set up by God implies i do not have the freewill to choose who to vote for.

 

[Jaymes]

I'm particularly interested in whether God set up some of the regimes that have killed millions.

 

[darkwaldo]

I'm particularly interested in whether God set up some of the regimes that have killed millions.

He may have set up all of them. Most religous people believe god is on their side when they go to war.

 

[Mykola]

frankly, i would disagree with Paul here, because to say the Governments are set up by God implies i do not have the freewill to choose who to vote for.

Excuse me, but I dare to disagree with you, the reason being that it does not imply cancellation of free will.

Let's try to arrange it to make more obvious the intended meaning.

1) God is the God of order.
2) He exerts an authority over all creation.
3) He's instituted the human authorities.
[Patience, we're heading to the core of the issue...]
4) God expects us to respect the authorities when they are already in power - elected, appointed etc. [It is tautological, but I want to stress the point: would-be authority is not, technically, authority at all!]

Hope it helps...

 

[Sunstone]

I think Paul either must have had far more respect for politicians than is rational and sane, or he must have had far less respect for God than he claimed. In thinking that God props up the buffoons on top, Paul became an idiot.

 

[may]

Jehovah God is allowing humans to rule , but only untill the time when he is going to step into the affairs of humans , then he will do away with imperfect manmade goverments and his heavenly kingdom goverment will be the only goverment left . Daniel 2;44
And in the days of those kings(human rulership) the God of heaven will set up a kingdom that will never be brought to ruin. And the kingdom itself will not be passed on to any other people. It will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, and it itself will stand to times indefinite;
so christians should be obedient to the laws of the land they live in , because thats the way Jehovah wants it to be . but if those goverments of men tell christians to do things that are breaking Gods laws ,then we would have to obey God as ruler and not the goverments of men."We must obey God as ruler rather than men."—ACTS 5:29.

 

[Mykola]

I think Paul either must have had far more respect for politicians than is rational and sane, or he must have had far less respect for God than he claimed. In thinking that God props up the buffoons on top, Paul became an idiot.

You're wrong...

Please read my post above and try to get the idea that God expects us to respect authorities, but there's more - a flipside implied! Namely, since the authorities have been given power, they're responsible for how they use this power.

So if a politician acts in the way you cannot respect reasonably - the politician is trespassing God's commandments, and you may not respect him/her personally, but you must respect the established order (unless, of course, its activity is fully contradictory to God's word).

Is that clear? No...
Mmm... Is anything more clear now?

 

[Mike182]

Excuse me, but I dare to disagree with you, the reason being that it does not imply cancellation of free will.

Let's try to arrange it to make more obvious the intended meaning.

1) God is the God of order.
2) He exerts an authority over all creation.
3) He's instituted the human authorities.
[Patience, we're heading to the core of the issue...]
4) God expects us to respect the authorities when they are already in power - elected, appointed etc. [It is tautological, but I want to stress the point: would-be authority is not, technically, authority at all!]

Hope it helps...

then the government was apointed by the mundane, not the divine

 

[Sunstone]

You're wrong...

Please read my post above and try to get the idea that God expects us to respect authorities, but there's more - a flipside implied! Namely, since the authorities have been given power, they're responsible for how they use this power.

So if a politician acts in the way you cannot respect reasonably - the politician is trespassing God's commandments, and you may not respect him/her personally, but you must respect the established order (unless, of course, its activity is fully contradictory to God's word).

Is that clear? No...
Mmm... Is anything more clear now?

Well, Mykola, since I don't accept the Bible as the word of God, nor even as an adequate description of deity (assuming deity exists), it is difficult for me to accept the premises of your argument in your earlier post.

For myself, I tend to trust more in constitutional separation of powers with checks and balances on the branches of government, a bill of rights, and the vigiliance of a free press and people to persuade politicians to be as decent as they can be (which isn't too decent). That is, I do not look to God to keep politicians in line, any more than I look to the consciences of the politicians themselves to keep them in line.

I don't think Paul knew a thing about practical government, let alone about how to make a representative government work.

However, I do agree with you to the extent that if one is going to follow Paul's advice, one had better have an opt out clause for when the politicians become even more corrupt and abusive of the people than they usually are.

 

[Mykola]

then the government was apointed by the mundane, not the divine

God had established/instituted the very principle of mundane authorities, which are extra-accountable before Him because of their extra-power. He allows us to elect rulers for ourselves or rulers to access to the position of power by some means, but the ultimate control over the whole world is reserved to Him only.

 

[Mykola]

Well, Mykola, since I don't accept the Bible as the word of God, nor even as an adequate description of deity (assuming deity exists),

It is amendable situation

it is difficult for me to accept the premises of your argument in your earlier post.

Well, so try to read those premises and analyze them by your reason only.

Again, you would be wrong to suppose that my having some firm premises means I'm limited in using my reason...

For myself, I tend to trust more in constitutional separation of powers with checks and balances on the branches of government, a bill of rights, and the vigiliance of a free press and people to persuade politicians to be as decent as they can be (which isn't too decent). That is, I do not look to God to keep politicians in line, any more than I look to the consciences of the politicians themselves to keep them in line.

I do look to God to see to everything, politicians not being an exclusion.

[But the concept of mundane authorities and their relationship with God and with people subject to these authorities is too broad for me to exhaustively put it forward here...]

I don't think Paul knew a thing about practical government, let alone about how to make a representative government work.

I think Paul was inspired by God to write what he'd written, so his (alleged) ignorance in practical political problems just doesn't count at all.

However, I do agree with you to the extent that if one is going to follow Paul's advice, one had better have an opt out clause for when the politicians become even more corrupt and abusive of the people than they usually are.

Again, the ideal ruler is God Himself.
The ideal human ruler is the one who obeys the God's will and use God's word to direct his steps. I know of no one for the time being...

To look from more pratical angle, I should say that no matter how corrupted is Ukrainian government, I am still obliged to remain law-obeying citizen and pay taxes and not to talk scandal on authorities. And I am still able to make some constructive steps by writing official petitions, for example.

 

[Mike182]

God had established/instituted the very principle of mundane authorities, which are extra-accountable before Him because of their extra-power. He allows us to elect rulers for ourselves or rulers to access to the position of power by some means, but the ultimate control over the whole world is reserved to Him only.

i appologise, but i see this a wholly contradictory -

God introduced us to the idea of governing bodies
God left us to decide who governs of our own free will
God is still in ultimate control

one of these has to be wrong, because otherwise, God would have relinquished all control

 

[Mykola]

i appologise, but i see this a wholly contradictory -

God introduced us to the idea of governing bodies
God left us to decide who governs of our own free will
God is still in ultimate control

one of these has to be wrong, because otherwise, God would have relinquished all control

1) God has created all things.
2) He is in control of everything [IMPORTANT: not in the sense of Him doing everything that is done (for instance, typing that by my fingers), but rather in the sense of Him being ever-ready to intervene when necessary]
3) He has created us with free will, which means ability to re-shape our lives by countless choices - just every second.
4) He suggested Him being the only ruler of mankind, but people rejected the offer. (They could do it because of #3.)
5) People had chosen to have their own kings/rulers. God forewarned people of the consequences, and consented, not to limit their free will.
6) So, the mundane authorities are approved generally by God, but He always ready to intervene if necessary (#2!).

 

[Jaymes]

1) God has created all things.
2) He is in control of everything [IMPORTANT: not in the sense of Him doing everything that is done (for instance, typing that by my fingers), but rather in the sense of Him being ever-ready to intervene when necessary]
3) He has created us with free will, which means ability to re-shape our lives by countless choices - just every second.
4) He suggested Him being the only ruler of mankind, but people rejected the offer. (They could do it because of #3.)
5) People had chosen to have their own kings/rulers. God forewarned people of the consequences, and consented, not to limit their free will.
6) So, the mundane authorities are approved generally by God, but He always ready to intervene if necessary (#2!).

On that note, I have a question about Romans 13:2 - Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Does this mean that things like peaceful protest (such as those that Gandhi, the current Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King Jr, and many others encouraged) will be damned for it?

 

[Krie]

if god is really bad yes if not no

 

[Mykola]

On that note, I have a question about Romans 13:2 - Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. Does this mean that things like peaceful protest (such as those that Gandhi, the current Dalai Lama, Martin Luther King Jr, and many others encouraged) will be damned for it?

When such a questions occur in your head, try to envision the whole picture:
1) God established authorities and...
2) ...these authorities should use their power to bring about justice, support those in need, and rule according to God's will; this implies that they must seek to know His will!

With this in mind, let's look at those who peacefully protests against the actions of authorities. This protest is not sin by itself (imo) - they're not slandering the authorities nor harbor any malicious plans against them.

Now, let's move on to the dearly beloved by many people damnation.

If anyone seeks justice and sees that the authorities are doing wrong, the one will do good praying to God for wisdom for the autorities, for the blessing of the authorities by wisdom and their acknowledgment of greater responsibility and accountability before God. I cannot seem to see how highly respected Gandhi or Dalai Lama, who I do not know much about, or Martin Luther King Jr, not having reconciled themselves with God, could possibly have improved the situation.
"...Except the LORD build the house, they labour in vain that build it: except the LORD keep the city, the watchman waketh but in vain." (Ps. 127:1b)

It is not me who is to decide whether they be damned, but you know - the rejection of Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior is the reason serious enough to be damned.
"He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned." (Mark 16:16).

 

[Mykola]

if god is really bad yes if not no

Can you please support this assertion?

 

[onmybelief]

I am gonna have to disagree with Paul in his assessment. This part goes on to say that we should also blindly follow orders because they were set up by God. I will do no such thing if that government is oppressive and corrupt.

Oh yeah I'm sure that He set up the Nazi government so they could eliminate 6 million Jews.:sarcastic Because we know those jews - all they want to do is take over the world. Oh yeah I'm sure God was utterly pleased with this.:sarcastic
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