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Does God forgive soldiers?

Tathagata

Freethinker
That said I don't hold the trigger pullers as ultimately responsible. I hold their masters responsible.

Wow. I'm sorry, but you have a very twisted mind. You got it backwards. You hold the person who did the deed responsible, don't blame their "master."

If your friend told you to jump off a bridge, would you? Who's to blame if you did? You or your friend?

Every man can make his own choices. You don't have to obey orders (unless you are physically forced to). That's one of the reasons why I feel that Hitler is an innocent man. The Nazis had minds of their own and they could have easily revolted and killed Hitler, but no, they were mindless sheep and are 100% responsible for the crimes they committed.

In the same vein, today's soldiers are morally responsible for their actions, not the commanders.


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averageJOE

zombie
Luminous said:
killing is WRONG, and if you don't think so you have loose morals and an evil heart.
There are situations, if I were in, in which I wouldn't hesitate to kill someone. (Yes, I am still currently in the Army.) One situation is if ANYONE purposely tried to shoot me first.

Does a police officer have "loose morals and an evil heart" if he killed someone to protect you and your family?
 

Maury83

Member
Whilst personal defence in a sudden situation is excusable, by being a soldier one puts him/her self in the situation with the purpose of subduing or harming his neighbour. This latter one is not considered right in God's eyes. However, as far as forgiveness is concerned, God forgives and forgets upon repentance...unlike humans who harbour resentment. So even if one were a soldier who killed thousands of people, God would forgive him/her if he/she were repentant.
 

RitalinO.D.

Well-Known Member
Whilst personal defence in a sudden situation is excusable, by being a soldier one puts him/her self in the situation with the purpose of subduing or harming his neighbour.

So, you are saying that it is inexcusable for a person to want to fight for his country and protect it from foreign invaders? I'd tell you to go say that to a soldier, but I think we both know how that would turn out.

Fact is, nations need to be defended. In order to do that, you need people who are willing to protect it. If Israel didn't have the powerful military it does, chances are it would have been invaded by the surrounding Arab nations.

If you can't see the distinction in killing, and willful murder, then you need to reassess the two definitions.
 

Maury83

Member
I am saying that if invaders came to my country and put my life or that of my family members in danger, I would defend myself and them. But we both know that many wars have been faught for wrong reasons MONEY being 99.9% of them. Invasions are not happening, on the contrary, western countries go and ""protect"" civilians in Lybia.....and how do they do it? By bombing the place (forget about the civilians who die anyway). Same thing with Saddam Hussein who was accused of having weapons of maas distruction...where they ever found? NO!
How about all the fiction behind 9/11? Bush bought Bin Laden and his family a ticket so thay could fly out from the USA before the catastrophe happened....
Of course there have been noble fights/wars in the past but don't excuse what is happening today with protection/compassion and honour.

I feel sorry for those poor youngsters who had their whole lives to live and who either died or came back dismembered and limbless for the satisfaction of greedy rulers.
 

Luminous

non-existential luminary
I have but one question Luminous, do you have children? I don't believe protecting little ones is evil or immoral. In fact, I believe the exact opposite would apply to a self righteous spineless person who put their convictions ahead of their responsibility to protect their family if there was a threat.

I have but one comment. Killing is wrong and if you try to find excuses you are evil and immoral and deserve the purification of hell, which is a promise for christians and the rest of the anti-agnostics. Protecting our little ones is not evil or immoral, what is evil and immoral is killing them. Self righteous spineless people always find excuses to kill. everyone is somebody's child. Just because one is too irresponsible to carry out their responsibility correctly, should be no excuse for allowing Satan into their hearts. Simply because you have no faith in God to do what is right and protect your family gives you no excuse for war and other types of murder, specifically murder out of Satan inspired rage and fear. That being said: killing is an evil that we have to live with until human morals become better, such as what happened to slavery. In this way I am a hypocrite, because I would kill to protect a stray dog. It seems to me that our concepts of morality are our own, it all does depend on whether a soldier needs forgiveness, which only they themselves would know. Christians and other hypocrites and followers of evil Satan inspired blasphemies will be judged that more harshly for their denile of God given truth in favor of weak idol scriptures, self congratulation, and ignorant hearsays.
 
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littledb

New Member
Always keep in mind God is an equal opportunity God. He loves all of us equally and His gift to us is Grace. Perhaps look deeper inside yourself for the true meaning of Grace. It's a wonderful thing! Love and peace to you friend. :)
 

Where Is God

Creator
What do we even need war for? Soldiers are not in Iraq to protect our freedoms like propaganda says. They are there for disgusting oil.
 

RitalinO.D.

Well-Known Member
I have but one comment. Killing is wrong and if you try to find excuses you are evil and immoral and deserve the purification of hell, which is a promise for christians and the rest of the anti-agnostics. Protecting our little ones is not evil or immoral, what is evil and immoral is killing them. Self righteous spineless people always find excuses to kill. everyone is somebody's child. Just because one is too irresponsible to carry out their responsibility correctly, should be no excuse for allowing Satan into their hearts. Simply because you have no faith in God to do what is right and protect your family gives you no excuse for war and other types of murder, specifically murder out of Satan inspired rage and fear. That being said: killing is an evil that we have to live with until human morals become better, such as what happened to slavery. In this way I am a hypocrite, because I would kill to protect a stray dog. It seems to me that our concepts of morality are our own, it all does depend on whether a soldier needs forgiveness, which only they themselves would know. Christians and other hypocrites and followers of evil Satan inspired blasphemies will be judged that more harshly for their denile of God given truth in favor of weak idol scriptures, self congratulation, and ignorant hearsays.

Must be interesting living in such a one-dimensional world. You should try the real world sometime, where everything isn't so cut and dry.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Wow. I'm sorry, but you have a very twisted mind. You got it backwards. You hold the person who did the deed responsible, don't blame their "master."
Curiously, this is the "personal responsibility" the Republican war-mongers are always going on about.

If your friend told you to jump off a bridge, would you? Who's to blame if you did? You or your friend?
I was thinking exactly the same thing when this thread began, but thought it politic not to bring it up. Feared it would seem trite.

Every man can make his own choices. You don't have to obey orders (unless you are physically forced to). That's one of the reasons why I feel that Hitler is an innocent man. The Nazis had minds of their own and they could have easily revolted and killed Hitler, but no, they were mindless sheep and are 100% responsible for the crimes they committed.
Now you've really stepped in it, Tathagata. Excusing Hitler? You're going to catch some flack for this.

In the same vein, today's soldiers are morally responsible for their actions, not the commanders.
I agree that the soldiers must be held accountable. Their commanders cannot, christlike, take their subordinate's sins upon themselves. People are personally responsible for their own actions.
However, inasmuch as the commanders had a reasonable expectation that their subordinates would carry out their orders, moral or not, they share a degree of responsibility.

There are situations, if I were in, in which I wouldn't hesitate to kill someone. (Yes, I am still currently in the Army.) One situation is if ANYONE purposely tried to shoot me first.
I agree -- and I'm a left-leaning, Kum-by-ya, vegan pacifist. I have no problem with violence to prevent harm or greater violence.
My problem with the military, though, is that they routinely inflict violence upon ordinary people who have done them no harm, women and children, people who are no threat to them.

Does a police officer have "loose morals and an evil heart" if he killed someone to protect you and your family?
A police officer will not shoot at a felon if there's a risk of hitting an innocent. A soldier will.

You are not so smart.
Explain.
Hitler never killed anyone, and on the one occasion he was taken to the scene of a massacre he was physically ill.
The question of evil is not so black and white.


That is not true. Bush bought Bin ladens family tickets out of the country AFTER 9/11
To clarify, after 9/11 air traffic was shut down for several days across the US -- with the exception of military flights and those carrying members of the Bin-Laden family out of the country.
 
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RitalinO.D.

Well-Known Member
Explain.
Hitler never killed anyone, and on the one occasion he was taken to the scene of a massacre he was physically ill.
The question of evil is not so black and white.

How do you know he never actually killed anyone? Were you there? Is there any sort of proof he never committed a murder with his own hands? If there is, I'd like to see it.

He was responsible for the killing of 6 million Jews, and this is going to be dumbed down to "he never killed anyone"? Seems to trivialize his actions don't you think?

How anyone can say "Hitler was innocent" is beyond my comprehension and frankly makes me think such a person is seriously delusional.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
You've got a computer in front of you. Just google Thou shalt not kill. translation controversy, or something like that.
Scholars today generally agree that the passage doesn't refer to the sort of killing done in a "just war."

which is why i think is interesting...
on one hand; do not kill...on the other; only if it is just.
so what constitutes for a just killing...a holy war? but then both parties are defending their honor. one, their land the other...taking what god has ordained...

i just see it as moving goal posts...and justification for war.
thou shall not kill means that, especially to any normal thinking person...

however in leviticus 19, love your neighbor mean's to love your fellow israelite, not everyone (as i understand it)...so i can see how killing someone who isn't a part of your clan is justified in the OT in order to gain access to their land that god has ordained for your people.
 
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