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Does God have free will?
- Thread starter Gambit
- Start date
DayRaven
Beyond the wall
Depends on your theology. I would imagine from the classical sense the question can only be a rhetorical one. If God is wholly simplistic then there can be no metaphysical distinction between God and his will, desire or action.
That depends on if there is an "I" to will.
I've wondered this myself, as a pantheist. One way to look at it is - no, everything is determined and the pattern is set by an eternal chain of cause and effect. But if God's will is this cause and effect, then you could also say that God does have freewill because the determination of this universe, while already destined, is chaotic itself.
Skwim
Veteran Member
Of course not.* No creature does.
One would suppose so, being omnipotent and all; however, keep in mind that what he desires is determined---the actual doing is pretty much dependent on ability.
Don't follow the "if so" connection, but no, no creature has freewill.
Well, for one thing, taking away freewill pretty much invalidates the concept of sin and salvation, which takes the breath out of Christianity---people need their Christianity. Then there's the strong appeal of the notion that we have a true say in what we do, which goes a long way in justifying our notion of culpability, something our sense of law and order is rooted in. The notion of freewill also justifies praise.
* This is said a bit provokingly, knowing it isn't that apparent to a lot of people.
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Gambit
Well-Known Member
Determined by what (or by whom)?
Gambit
Well-Known Member
What exactly do you mean by chaotic?
Skwim
Veteran Member
The sequence of cause/effect's that establish the desire.
Gambit
Well-Known Member
Does that preclude God from having free will?
Do you believe there is an "I?"
Gambit
Well-Known Member
But there is no cause external to God making that determination.
Tough question. On one hand, in my faith, God can't lie (amongst other things). But he has been known to change His mind (such as in Jonah when He decided to not destroy Nineveh when they repented). But I don't think humans can know completely the nature of God (or gods).
Skwim
Veteran Member
The cause doesn't have to be external. But perhaps you're speaking of freewill in its most trivial sense: No one (thing) ain't making me do anything.
Unbounded.
The only way we could have freewill is if we were allowed to be in full control of our actions, influenced by nothing, and that's certainly not the case. Every single even that happens, down to the movement of the atom, has a cause and influences all events to happen.
There must be a reason for doing something, something leading up to that point cause the event. But we are restricted to making 'choices' by everything around us.
Gambit
Well-Known Member
Does this mean that you have not formulated a belief as to whether or not God has free will?
I am saying "I don't know".
Gambit
Well-Known Member
The cause doesn't have to be external. But perhaps you're speaking of freewill in its most trivial sense: No one (thing) ain't making me do anything.
I defined free will as doing whatever it is that you desire to do. How is that trivial?
Skwim
Veteran Member
When it's considered in contrast to nomological determinism (everything that happens is determined by antecedent conditions together with the natural laws). By the by, your definition of freewill as "doing whatever it is that you desire to do" rests on acting in accordance with your desires. So, in a case where you desire to lift one thousand pounds, but can't, this would negate your freewill, all of which brings freewill down to a dependency on physical ability, which isn't what the freewill issue is about---at least not in common parlance. The freewill issue normally revolves around an attempt to "reconcile an element of freedom with the apparent determinism in a world of causes and effects, a world of events in a great causal chain."* So, the onus is on the freewill advocate to show why the "apparent determinism in a world of causes and effects" is a faulty.
Care to take a stab?
*source
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Kolibri
Well-Known Member
If we were not endowed with free will, (thus predestined as individuals), then certain passages of Scripture (at least in both sections of the Bible) would be meaningless. Thus when looking into the future, God must be exercising restraint and being selective. Real choice demands free will although there are boundaries set by our personal power along with the powerful effect of what we have been feeding our minds and hearts with recently.
De 30:19,20 - I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Jos 24:15 - Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers served on the other side of the River or the gods of the Am'or-ites in whose land you are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah.
Since we were made in God's image, it would make logical sense that he too is a free moral agent, able to pick and choose. (Ge 1:26,27) This does not mean that Jehovah is capricious. Although God says that he can change his mind, he has also stated that his personality does not change over time. (Jer 18:9,10; Mal 3:6; Isa 46:4; Jas 1:17)
De 30:19,20 - I take the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you today that I have put life and death before you, the blessing and the curse; and you must choose life so that you may live, you and your descendants, by loving Jehovah your God, by listening to his voice, and by sticking to him, for he is your life and by him you will endure a long time in the land that Jehovah swore to give to your forefathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.
Jos 24:15 - Now if it seems bad to you to serve Jehovah, choose for yourselves today whom you will serve, whether the gods that your forefathers served on the other side of the River or the gods of the Am'or-ites in whose land you are dwelling. But as for me and my household, we will serve Jehovah.
Since we were made in God's image, it would make logical sense that he too is a free moral agent, able to pick and choose. (Ge 1:26,27) This does not mean that Jehovah is capricious. Although God says that he can change his mind, he has also stated that his personality does not change over time. (Jer 18:9,10; Mal 3:6; Isa 46:4; Jas 1:17)
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Skwim
Veteran Member
Pretty much so.
That's why real choice is an illusion. Hell, any sense of choice is.
"Logic" that also means god is sinful.
Kolibri
Well-Known Member
"Logic" that also means god is sinful.
I don't see the connection, as it is God that defines the standards of what is perfect.
As an Advaitan Hindu, I think the best answer to your question is ultimately there is only one free-will; God/Brahman. In fact there is only One and we are that One.
However, in our relative reality we have the illusion of free-will. But even our relative reality itself is an illusion.
But at the stage of a normal human spiritual evolution we experience free-will as real and 'this chair' as real. "Free-will" and the "chair" are what we experience; that they are not real is just an intellectual concept, not our experience.
However, in our relative reality we have the illusion of free-will. But even our relative reality itself is an illusion.
But at the stage of a normal human spiritual evolution we experience free-will as real and 'this chair' as real. "Free-will" and the "chair" are what we experience; that they are not real is just an intellectual concept, not our experience.