Does God Hide From Us -- Or Do We Hide God From Us?

[Sunstone]

One of the more curious things about our noble and esteemed species of spear-chucking, fur-challenged super-apes is that our normal, everyday waking consciousness divides the world into self and not-self.

When we see a tree, for instance, we not only see the tree, but we have a nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the tree is not-us. When we have a conscious thought, we have a similar nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the thought is us -- or at least a part of us.

Now, in some relatively rare instances, people experience an abrupt end to that self and not-self way of perceiving the world while yet their awareness or experiencing in some sense continues. And when that happens, self and not-self perceiving is replaced by a perception of "oneness". That is, a sense or feeling that all things are somehow, on some level, indiscreet and really just one thing. This is sometimes called, "the mystical experience".

Some people -- but not all -- who have had such an experience come away convinced that their experience was one of god. That is, an experience of -- among other things -- a sentient agent ("Agent" being something that has a will).

Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?

After all, who here is responsible for dividing the world into self and not-self -- and thus obscuring "the oneness of all things" -- if not our own consciousness?

Your carefully considered thoughts, comments, observations, and mouth-frothing rants are welcome!

 

[Enoch07]

One of the more curious things about our noble and esteemed species of spear-chucking, fur-challenged super-apes is that our normal, everyday waking consciousness divides the world into self and not-self.

When we see a tree, for instance, we not only see the tree, but we have a nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the tree is not-us. When we have a conscious thought, we have a similar nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the thought is us -- or at least a part of us.

Now, in some relatively rare instances, people experience an abrupt end to that self and not-self way of perceiving the world while yet their awareness or experiencing in some sense continues. And when that happens, self and not-self perceiving is replaced by a perception of "oneness". That is, a sense or feeling that all things are somehow, on some level, indiscreet and really just one thing. This is sometimes called, "the mystical experience".

Some people -- but not all -- who have had such an experience come away convinced that their experience was one of god. That is, an experience of -- among other things -- a sentient agent ("Agent" being something that has a will).

Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?

After all, who here is responsible for dividing the world into self and not-self -- and thus obscuring "the oneness of all things" -- if not our own consciousness?

Your carefully considered thoughts, comments, observations, and mouth-frothing rants are welcome!

Its easier to think God hides from us. I even mentioned that in another thread recently. Because thats the way it seems to us.

But in all reality I think its that we just ignore Him. The first 30ish years of my life I was athiest. Used to do the same thing athiest do here and point out illogical/irrational thinking etc.

Then that changed one day. I wont get into that specifically. But it changed nonetheless. It turns out to be that God was behind me over my shoulder the whole time, waiting for me to acknowledge Him. And it has been a wonderful experience since then.

Don't get me wrong, I stray, I get caught up in my own bullcrap sometimes. Go weeks or months without even thinking about God, let alone prayer or bible study. But He is always still there when I come to my senses, always waiting patiently.

Anyways its anecdotal, but thats my experience of uncovering the mystery of "Where is God?"

 

[allfoak]

God is in all and is all.
The blindness comes from the cheap sunglasses

 

[Altfish]

God is in all and is all.
The blindness comes from the cheap sunglasses

But I wear Ray Bans and still can't see her.

 

[sayak83]

One of the more curious things about our noble and esteemed species of spear-chucking, fur-challenged super-apes is that our normal, everyday waking consciousness divides the world into self and not-self.

When we see a tree, for instance, we not only see the tree, but we have a nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the tree is not-us. When we have a conscious thought, we have a similar nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the thought is us -- or at least a part of us.

Now, in some relatively rare instances, people experience an abrupt end to that self and not-self way of perceiving the world while yet their awareness or experiencing in some sense continues. And when that happens, self and not-self perceiving is replaced by a perception of "oneness". That is, a sense or feeling that all things are somehow, on some level, indiscreet and really just one thing. This is sometimes called, "the mystical experience".

Some people -- but not all -- who have had such an experience come away convinced that their experience was one of god. That is, an experience of -- among other things -- a sentient agent ("Agent" being something that has a will).

Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?

After all, who here is responsible for dividing the world into self and not-self -- and thus obscuring "the oneness of all things" -- if not our own consciousness?

Your carefully considered thoughts, comments, observations, and mouth-frothing rants are welcome!

I sense a conversion from the religion of erotic dancing girls here to.. Zen Buddhism? The erotic dancing girls are droopy.

 

[Sunstone]

I sense a conversion from the religion of erotic dancing girls...

NEVER! I shall remain loyal to the girls until their last g-string is pluck from my cold, dead teeth.

 

[allfoak]

But I wear Ray Bans and still can't see her.

Can a child see its mother from inside the womb?

 

[Spiderman]

One of the more curious things about our noble and esteemed species of spear-chucking, fur-challenged super-apes is that our normal, everyday waking consciousness divides the world into self and not-self.

When we see a tree, for instance, we not only see the tree, but we have a nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the tree is not-us. When we have a conscious thought, we have a similar nearly unshakeable sense or feeling that the thought is us -- or at least a part of us.

Now, in some relatively rare instances, people experience an abrupt end to that self and not-self way of perceiving the world while yet their awareness or experiencing in some sense continues. And when that happens, self and not-self perceiving is replaced by a perception of "oneness". That is, a sense or feeling that all things are somehow, on some level, indiscreet and really just one thing. This is sometimes called, "the mystical experience".

Some people -- but not all -- who have had such an experience come away convinced that their experience was one of god. That is, an experience of -- among other things -- a sentient agent ("Agent" being something that has a will).

Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?

After all, who here is responsible for dividing the world into self and not-self -- and thus obscuring "the oneness of all things" -- if not our own consciousness?

Your carefully considered thoughts, comments, observations, and mouth-frothing rants are welcome!

I always thought you were an agnostic... Never thought I would see that coming from you... Perhaps the spirit moved you... good job!

 

[PureX]

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?

To be honest, I think it would be a distinction without a difference.

Do I 'create God' in my own mind, and then define my creation as my "Creator"? Sure. But does that make my creation "untrue"? There's no way to know. Or does it make me a hidden that "God", hiding from myself, behind the one I invented? Maybe so.

In the end reality and truth are ideological phenomena that's being created in our own heads. Along with "God" and love and beauty and righteousness and meaning and purpose and everything else. If God is "hiding from us", it's hiding in our own head. And when God "reveals itself to us", it does so within our own heads, too. Because cognition happens in the brain. Not in the world.

 

[Mister Silver]

I have heard from other atheists that suspending disbelief just to believe is an impossibility, yet that is precisely what faith requires. And then theists wonder why those who disbelieve cannot simply have faith in god's existence.

As for suspension of disbelief, I personally believe it is possible. It's just that I wish to not do it. I prefer to stay grounded in reality than open my mind to a concept that has no tether to reason.

If the theist believes that atheists can suspend disbelief, then it makes sense that theists think atheists are hiding god from themselves. As for me, it is understandable that there is no hidden god, for god does not exist.

 

[PureX]

I have heard from other atheists that suspending disbelief just to believe is an impossibility, yet that is precisely what faith requires.

Disbelief based on nothing but ignorance and bias is easy to suspend. And is in fact more reasonable to suspend than to maintain.

As for suspension of disbelief, I personally believe it is possible. It's just that I wish to not do it. I prefer to stay grounded in reality than open my mind to a concept that has no tether to reason.

Yeah, but what you fail to realize is that what you call "reality" is an elaborate conceptual paradigm that you've created in your own mind (as we all have). And that it's as riddled with misconceptions and bias as anyone else's. So when you choose to "stay grounded in reality" all you're doing is choosing to close yourself off from the new possibilities that other people's views of reality might offer you, and the benefits those new views might provide. And it's not making you one bit more honest, accurate, or effective in life by your doing so. It just blinds you to new ways of seeing and understanding your experience of existence.

If the theist believes that atheists can suspend disbelief, then it makes sense that theists think atheists are hiding god from themselves.

Atheists are absolutely hiding the option of faith in God from themselves. And they are losing out on the positive benefits that faith could make possible for them. And they are doing it based on nothing but their own entrenched ignorance and bias (and usually an excessive resentment against organized religion).

As for me, it is understandable that there is no hidden god, for god does not exist.

Only because you have chosen to stagnate in this unsubstantiated delusion of "certainty".

 

[Mister Silver]

Only because you have chosen to stagnate in this unsubstantiated delusion of "certainty".

Is Certainty the Enemy of Enlightenment?

 

[PureX]

Is Certainty the Enemy of Enlightenment?

Well, it's certainly the enemy of that possibility.

 

[Altfish]

Can a child see its mother from inside the womb?

Very profound!!
But the unborn child still feels the benefit of the mother, receives nourishment and protection.

 

[Windwalker]

Let's make a leap here and suppose for a moment that these people are correct, and that the mystical experience really is an experience of god. What would that mean to the notion that god hides from us?

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?

To say God hides from us is simply language spoken from the perception of an experience of separation, like saying "Where did the sun go", when a cloud moves in front of it. The sun didn't go anywhere, technically speaking, but we poetically say "it's hiding behind that cloud".

For the mystic, we understand it is us who have put the cloud up there originating from ourselves. To lament as the Psalmist did when said,

"Do not cast me from your presence
or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of your salvation
and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me."​

is simply to express that feeling of separation from God from the perception of our own 'sin', that makes God external to us because it is no longer a felt sense in our lives. It's not a technical reality, in other words as in another psalm he says,

"Where can I go from your spirit?
From your presence, where can I flee?
If I ascend to the heavens, you are there;
if I lie down in Sheol, there you are.
and dwell beyond the sea,
Even there your hand guides me,
your right hand holds me fast.
If I say, “Surely darkness shall hide me,
and night shall be my light”—
Darkness is not dark for you,
and night shines as the day.
Darkness and light are but one."​

When we experience this mystical Union, it is quite clear there is no "where" God is not, even in the depths of despair and separation. It is only us who have pulled the curtain in front of our own eyes, darkening and isolating the room we are in from the brightly shining sun in the world outside.

 

[pearl]

Wouldn't there now be a sense in which it could be said that "we hide god from us", as opposed to saying "god hides from us"?

God in search of man?

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Is Certainty the Enemy of Enlightenment?

Certainty is the thin gruel in the petri dish of hubris.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

"Does God Hide From Us -- Or Do We Hide God From Us?"

• Probably not.

What we do, however, is persistently and effectively delude ourselves into believing that we know far more than we know. This is proof of nothing, but it does warrant a preference for caution.

 

[Windwalker]

Is Certainty the Enemy of Enlightenment?

Yes. It certainly is the enemy of enlightenment! Certainty is what religious fundamentalists strive to know so they feel safe and secure, but close themselves off from truth and knowledge as the tightly grip their ideas as the "one true answer". So yes, it absolutely is the enemy of enlightenment. Being an atheist doesn't mean you've changed that fundamental flaw.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

God in search of man?

^ Great book.