Does God love everyone equally?

[Glaurung]

According to Catholic teaching, no one is predetermined to Hell. Although God knows with certainty the eventual fate of every soul, he bestows upon everyone sufficient grace for their salvation should they so respond to that grace by their free accord of their wills.

However, while no one who truly desires salvation will be lost, it is evident that God affords greater grace to some than to others. The greater the grace, the more opportunity for that soul's salvation.

Take saint Paul for example. He was a fanatical Pharisee who murdered Christians. Would he have changed were it not for the direct intervention of Christ by appearing to him? How many reprobate guilty of far less then would have repented if they were given the same grace? God may have desired their salvation, but is was not part of his plan to do as much for that end as it was for Saint Paul and other saints given extraordinary graces.

If God will do more for the salvation of certain souls than most others, what is the logical implication but that God's love is not equally bestowed among all souls? Certainly, he may love each and every one of us all beyond all measure and merit, but nonetheless his love cannot logically be said to be equally distributed.

On the one hand, God is God and he owes no one their salvation. No one merits love from God but to the extent it pleases him to love us. For whom am I, a mere creature of dust to question God?

Yet, this doesn't fully sit well with me. That some are afforded a greater chance at salvation than others. No one who responds to God's grace will be lost, and we all have enough of it for our salvation. Nonetheless, he already knows our eventual ends and it's an uncomfortable thought that in his provenance he will not do upon everyone equally for their salvation.

This is not Calvinism, wherein God actively predetermines the salvation and reprobation of souls. Our fate is up to us yet I find it uncomfortable that not all are given equal help for their salvation.

 

[Nadia Faiazova]

God loves mankind in general, for he gave up His only-begotten Son to redeem mankind. In the same time, his love is especially attached to those who know him as person and who try to do his will, according to His written Word.

 

[Glaurung]

God loves mankind in general, for he gave up His only-begotten Son to redeem mankind. In the same time, his love is especially attached to those who know him as person and who try to do his will, according to His written Word.

Yes, but the desire to come to know God is itself a gift of grace from God. God does the calling, it is up to us to respond. The question is not whether or not God unfairly reprobates those who reject him; there can be no mercy for those who refuse to receive mercy, but why God will go to a greater extent to call some over others. Because while God may truly desire the salvation of all men, and truly provides everyone with a genuine capacity to be saved (contra Reformed theology) the extent to which we all receive mercy is not equal. Would Saint Paul have converted had he not been given utter certainty of Christ by supernatural intervention? How many atheists would convert if they were given such a gift?

However

For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."
Romans 9:15

The problem is that while those in Hell do truly deserve it, the fact is that God could have done more to save them had he so chosen. Consequently, there's a temptation to call God out as unjust, for an unequal distribution of mercy offends human sensibilities of fairness. Yet at the same time, the fact that God should offer anyone salvation at all is more than he is in any way obliged to do, and therefore can be said to be fair to all men.

If I give a beggar five dollars, and another ten, I cannot be said to be cheating the five dollar beggar, as he was never entitled to anything to begin with. But it cannot be denied that I am showing partiality in favour of the ten dollar beggar. My contention is that while God is infinitely gracious to us all, he is not blindly impartial to us all. Of course, we have to trust that his partiality isn't arbitrary; lest we falsely render God a monster in our minds. But you can begin to see the conflict it creates in the human mind.

Do we insist upon expecting our limited notion of justice from God? Or do we resist that temptation and trust that God knows better than us?

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

According to Catholic teaching, no one is predetermined to Hell. Although God knows with certainty the eventual fate of every soul

So where do people go if they reject the salvation offered by Christ if they aren't predetermined to go to Hell? Limbo doesn't exist any more, remember?

 

[Shiranui117]

So where do people go if they reject the salvation offered by Christ if they aren't predetermined to go to Hell? Limbo doesn't exist any more, remember?

They go to Hell if they choose it by their actions. All are predestined by God for Heaven, yet it remains up to us whether that actually happens.

 

[The Emperor of Mankind]

They go to Hell if they choose it by their actions. All are predestined by God for Heaven, yet it remains up to us whether that actually happens.

Predestined for Heaven? What about original sin? I always thought the point of salvation was that it was the only way we could get to Heaven; we can't do it on our own. If you're saying we're predestined to accept Christ's salvation then in what sense do we have free will?

 

[Shiranui117]

Predestined for Heaven? What about original sin? I always thought the point of salvation was that it was the only way we could get to Heaven; we can't do it on our own.

This is true, and God offers His salvation to all, though the obviousness of this varies from person to person; to St. Paul, who persecuted the Church viciously, Christ appeared visibly. This is a stark and bold manifestation of God's grace. To the native living in South America during the 1200's AD, it is likely that God never showed Himself unto that person, but that person still had the opportunity for salvation, if only he follows his God-given consciousness and lives righteously as best as he knows how.

Romans 2 says the following:
For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge people’s hidden works through Christ Jesus.

If you're saying we're predestined to accept Christ's salvation then in what sense do we have free will?

I think the biggest misconception about predestination is that it means we have to go along with what God chose for us. Now granted, this may be the view of John Calvin, but he is highly unusual in his position. Mankind is created in God's image, and that means we have true free will to make our own decisions. If God predestines our course of action, and we go along with it, then things will happen as God predestined them, because we chose to cooperate with God. God may have a plan in mind for each of us, but He doesn't program us to follow that.

It may be more accurate to say that God's will plus man's action equals predestination, depending on how exactly you define the word; perhaps the most complicated part of talking about differing views within Christianity is that the same words have different meanings to different people.

There is a book of the Bible, accepted by Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox and Assyrian Christians (so around 75% of all Christians), that speaks very clearly to this subject, called the Wisdom of Sirach. Check out part of chapter 15:

Do not say: “It was God’s doing that I fell away,”
for what he hates he does not do.
12 Do not say: “He himself has led me astray,”
for he has no need of the wicked.
13 Abominable wickedness the Lord hates
and he does not let it happen to those who fear him.

14 God in the beginning created human beings
and made them subject to their own free choice.
15 If you choose, you can keep the commandments;
loyalty is doing the will of God.
16 Set before you are fire and water;
to whatever you choose, stretch out your hand.
17 Before everyone are life and death,
whichever they choose will be given them.

18 Immense is the wisdom of the Lord;
mighty in power, he sees all things.
19 The eyes of God behold his works,
and he understands every human deed.
20 He never commands anyone to sin,
nor shows leniency toward deceivers.

This makes it clear that none of us are forced by God's predestination to do either good or evil; He calls us to do good (Psalm 50) and desires that we all be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4), but as the above makes clear, whether that happens is on us.

 

[Thief]

According to Catholic teaching, no one is predetermined to Hell. Although God knows with certainty the eventual fate of every soul, he bestows upon everyone sufficient grace for their salvation should they so respond to that grace by their free accord of their wills.

However, while no one who truly desires salvation will be lost, it is evident that God affords greater grace to some than to others. The greater the grace, the more opportunity for that soul's salvation.

To those who have more shall be given.

I say....grace....means to allow.
It also speaks of the manner of your speech and the gesture of your deeds.

Greater allowance unto those who have no reserve of their tongue or their hand?
Give unto the dogs.....the bread of the children?

and the woman begging for the life of her child then said unto Him.....
'but even the dogs have crumbs from the table of the children.'

the life of her child was then spared.

 

[Glaurung]

So where do people go if they reject the salvation offered by Christ if they aren't predetermined to go to Hell? Limbo doesn't exist any more, remember?

You'll notice that I deliberately used the word predetermined over predestined. By predetermination I mean it in the Reformed/Calvinist sense, wherein God actively decides what will and will not happen including those who will and will not accept the Gospel and consequently be saved. It's a view of God's sovereignty taken to such an extreme that it essentially denies the existence of human freedom. I reject this as heretical and psychopathic, because it means God is a sadist who punishes humans for a rejection he himself predetermined them to commit.

Predestination in the Catholic/Orthodox sense, simply refers to God's desired plan for each soul. God truly desires the salvation and happiness of every single human soul and has created and predestined us all to that end. However, God has given us the freedom to reject that end and as a consequence he permits that at least some will be lost and suffer Hell. God being omniscient knows who those lost or "reprobate" will be, but it was not God who caused them to end up in that state, it was a result of free choice to reject God's will for them.

The problem is that while God predestines us all to Heaven, he gives greater grace to some to reach that end over others. In other words, God does more for the salvation of certain souls over others and we don't know why. The temptation is to question God's justice, but the idea that any human could rightly presume to question omniscience is beyond absurd. We have to trust that God is not arbitrary, that there's a reason why he does what he does, and allows what he allows.

It's just that this can be hard to do at times, and it's what causes me a lot of inner conflict.

 

[Sultan Of Swing]

You'll notice that I deliberately used the word predetermined over predestined. By predetermination I mean it in the Reformed/Calvinist sense, wherein God actively decides what will and will not happen including those who will and will not accept the Gospel and consequently be saved. It's a view of God's sovereignty taken to such an extreme that it essentially denies the existence of human freedom. I reject this as heretical and psychopathic, because it means God is a sadist who punishes humans for a rejection he himself predetermined them to commit.

Predestination in the Catholic/Orthodox sense, simply refers to God's desired plan for each soul. God truly desires the salvation and happiness of every single human soul and has created and predestined us all to that end. However, God has given us the freedom to reject that end and as a consequence he permits that at least some will be lost and suffer Hell. God being omniscient knows who those lost or "reprobate" will be, but it was not God who caused them to end up in that state, it was a result of free choice to reject God's will for them.

The problem is that while God predestines us all to Heaven, he gives greater grace to some to reach that end over others. In other words, God does more for the salvation of certain souls over others and we don't know why. The temptation is to question God's justice, but the idea that any human could rightly presume to question omniscience is beyond absurd. We have to trust that God is not arbitrary, that there's a reason why he does what he does, and allows what he allows.

It's just that this can be hard to do at times, and it's what causes me a lot of inner conflict.

No one deserves salvation. Everyone deserves Hell.

Truly accepting these two statements should solve your dilemma.

Giving a person more grace than another is not unfair, for grace is grace and God has mercy on whom He wills. If both do not deserve anything from God, and in fact deserve His wrath, why is it unfair if one receives more than the other?

The idea that it is unfair must stem in some way from some notion that people deserve anything from God. If nothing is deserved, then there is no question of fairness. The only unfairness that could be raised is why should God give people any grace at all, why should He bestow upon anyone something they don't deserve? This is the true mystery, that God should have mercy upon us, not that He gives some more than others, for none deserve it in the first place.

(I believe God unconditionally elects people to salvation, and my answer applies to my perspective as well, but I believe it should just as well apply to your own, that having more or less grace cannot raise any question of fairness, if people do not deserve grace to begin with, but deserve punishment.)

 

[Shadow of Liberty]

The only unfairness that could be raised is why should God give people any grace at all, why should He bestow upon anyone something they don't deserve? This is the true mystery, that God should have mercy upon us, not that He gives some more than others, for none deserve it in the first place.

Mercy's master motive was designed for God's namesake. (Isaiah 48:9-11)

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1041.htm

 

[URAVIP2ME]

They go to Hell if they choose it by their actions. All are predestined by God for Heaven, yet it remains up to us whether that actually happens.

Sounds as if you are saying that Jesus chose hell ?_______
Didn't Jesus go to hell the day Jesus died ?_______Acts of the Apostles 2:27
Are those of John 3:13 predestined for heaven ?_______
Was King David sent to heaven ?______Acts of the Apostles 2:34

Did Jesus promise the meek of earth heaven, or rather the meek inheriting earth forever - Psalms 37:11; Psalms 37:29
What would be the point of the return of the Genesis ' tree of life ' on earth if No one ends up on earth - Revelation 22:2
Who goes and who remains on earth according to Proverbs 2:21-22 ?

 

[URAVIP2ME]

So where do people go if they reject the salvation offered by Christ if they aren't predetermined to go to Hell? Limbo doesn't exist any more, remember?

Simply put: the wicked are destroyed forever (annihilated ) - Psalms 92:7

Also, please remember there is a BIG difference between the permanent non-biblical religious-myth hell teaching,
and the Bible's temporary hell ( grave ) where the dead ' sleep in death ' until resurrected.
- John 11:11-14; Psalms 115:17; Psalms 146:4; Daniel 12:2; Daniel 12:13; Ecclesiastes 9:5

Some are resurrected to heaven - Revelation 20:6 - they have a first or earlier resurrection.
Whereas the majority of mankind will have a healthy physical resurrection back to life on earth during Jesus' coming 1,000 year governmental rulership over earth.

 

[Glaurung]

Simply put: the wicked are destroyed forever (annihilated ) - Psalms 92:7

I really don't want this thread to be hijacked as an annihilationist preaching pulpit. Whatever you believe about Hell it's irrelevant to the topic.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

I really don't want this thread to be hijacked as an annihilationist preaching pulpit. Whatever you believe about Hell it's irrelevant to the topic.

How is ' God loves everyone in biblical hell (grave ) equally ' hijacking the thread ?
If God did Not love everyone in the Bible's hell, then some in biblical hell ( grave) would remain in the grave instead of being resurrected out of the Bible's hell by Christ Jesus - Revelation 1:18

Does God love everyone equally according to Romans 9:13 ?_______

Where would Jesus find the answer to ' does God love everyone equally ' but in the Scriptures.
Does Jesus' ransom price cover all or everyone according to Matthew 20:28 ?___________

 

[Glaurung]

How is ' God loves everyone in biblical hell (grave ) equally ' hijacking the thread ?

The thread concerns the unequal distribution of God's grace among souls. It has nothing to do with the actual content of the afterlife.

You're free to create your own threads where you can authoritatively declare your views.