Does God make mistakes

[savagewind]

Of course it is. God created matter, photons, you, so ultimately it's God's intent and creation.

So, you believe in God?

I think water is like a mirror and water was created for life and NOT for its reflective properties.

 

[savagewind]

Then sin can't be judged.

Good! Maybe it is why the Bible says God and Jesus do not judge.

It's not our fault

OUR fault?

of anything we're doing since we can't choose.

I did not say there is no choice. I say it isn't free.

 

[savagewind]

Every choice and the refusal to choose has consequences. Consequences make everything not free.

 

[Ouroboros]

So, you believe in God?

In the pantheistic God. All things are God.

I think water is like a mirror and water was created for life and NOT for its reflective properties.

Ok. So there were some unintended features as an effect of how it was created. Still, the burden is on the one making it. If there's a bug in a software that the programmer didn't intended to be, he/she is still the one who has to fix it. The company is still responsible for the bug, even if it wasn't intended. That's why Microsoft, Apple, and all the other companies are sending out updates to fix bugs and such.

 

[Ouroboros]

Good! Maybe it is why the Bible says God and Jesus do not judge.OUR fault? I did not say there is no choice. I say it isn't free.

There isn't a choice if you can't choose.

Having a fork in the road but the car can only drive to the left doesn't mean that you can choose which road to take. It's not my fault or your fault that God created you to only drive to the left.

 

[Ouroboros]

Every choice and the refusal to choose has consequences. Consequences make everything not free.

I don't follow. Either you're free to choose and take the consequences for what they are, or you can't choose, i.e. not free to choose. You mean that you're not free to choose because God is holding a gun to your head with threats of eternal damnation if you don't choose what he wants? Or you're not free to choose because of inability to choose? Or not free because there aren't any choices?

 

[savagewind]

In the pantheistic God. All things are God.

I do not believe sin is God. Sin is bad choices. But, maybe you have something saying "God is responsible". Is that what you are saying? He paid the penalty. Correct?

Ok. So there were some unintended features as an effect of how it was created. Still, the burden is on the one making it. .

I agree with you about that technical, legal stuff.

 

[savagewind]

There isn't a choice if you can't choose.

Having a fork in the road but the car can only drive to the left doesn't mean that you can choose which road to take. It's not my fault or your fault that God created you to only drive to the left.

A person can't choose without consequences. I never said a person can't choose. Why are you saying that?

 

[savagewind]

I don't follow. Either you're free to choose and take the consequences for what they are, or you can't choose, i.e. not free to choose. You mean that you're not free to choose because God is holding a gun to your head with threats of eternal damnation if you don't choose what he wants? Or you're not free to choose because of inability to choose? Or not free because there aren't any choices?

Not everyone is free to choose each [what?] . It isn't either/or.

What the ell are we talking about?

 

[Ouroboros]

I do not believe sin is God. Sin is bad choices.

And I believe we're part of God, so bad choices are also part of choices that God makes.

But, maybe you have something saying "God is responsible".

If God is the designer, then God is responsible for the design. How the design works is because that's how God made it.

Is that what you are saying? He paid the penalty. Correct?
There's no penalty to pay. We all pay by living our life and making the best out of it. If we don't, we tend to pay in other ways later in life, like a form of karma.

 

[Ouroboros]

A person can't choose without consequences. I never said a person can't choose. Why are you saying that?

You said we're not free to choose. Free will is the term that signifies the idea of freedom to choose. You said free will doesn't exist, hence freedom to choose doesn't exist.

 

[Ouroboros]

Not everyone is free to choose each [what?] . It isn't either/or.

What the ell are we talking about?

You said free will doesn't exist. If we don't have the freedom of our will, then how can we have freedom to choose (which is using our will)?

 

[savagewind]

You said we're not free to choose. Free will is the term that signifies the idea of freedom to choose. You said free will doesn't exist, hence freedom to choose doesn't exist.

the power of acting without the constraint of necessity or fate; the ability to act at one's own discretion.
freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention.
The ability to choose, think, and act voluntarily. For many philosophers, to believe in free will is to believe that human beings can be the authors of their own actions and to reject the idea that human actions are determined by external conditions or fate.

Those definitions from the net are what I say are not real respecting humankind.

Humankind is created with the WILL to choose. Will and freedom are not the same. OK?

 

[EtuMalku]

This 'free will' is IMO misunderstood, it should not be rendered as the ability to make choices but rather 'freedom from the will of another' . . . which is the true lesson of the Serpent in the Garden

 

[savagewind]

This 'free will' is IMO misunderstood, it should not be rendered as the ability to make choices but rather 'freedom from the will of another' . . . which is the true lesson of the Serpent in the Garden

I shall think about that. Without the force of some kind, one person can't make another person do anything.

 

[Ouroboros]

Will and freedom are not the same. OK?

Of course not, that's why it's called free will, and not free free or will will. It's two different aspects. Free will is the ability to freely choose.

 

[savagewind]

Of course not, that's why it's called free will, and not free free or will will. It's two different aspects. Free will is the ability to freely choose.

Not fair! YOU say will and choice are the same. Do you not?

Will leads to choices to be made. I heard you say free will means free choice.

I think I am doing damage to my brain with this crazy talk. I should stop.

 

[Ouroboros]

Not fair! YOU say will and choice are the same. Do you not?

Yes. But "free" and "will" aren't the same, also "free" and "choice" aren't the same.

Will leads to choices to be made. I heard you say free will means free choice.

Yes. You said that free will, i.e. free choice, doesn't exist. That we don't have freedom to choose or freedom to will.

I think I am doing damage to my brain with this crazy talk. I should stop.

Sure. We can take it up some other time (or not). You're free to choose either or.

 

[savagewind]

Yes. But "free" and "will" aren't the same, also "free" and "choice" aren't the same.


Yes. You said that free will, i.e. free choice, doesn't exist. That we don't have freedom to choose or freedom to will.


Sure. We can take it up some other time (or not). You're free to choose either or.

Free choice or free will means doing anything independent of constraint, necessity, prior experience, external condition ie other people and circumstances..... That never happens imo

God has free will and is alone having it.

 

[Ouroboros]

Free choice or free will means doing anything independent of constraint, necessity, prior experience, external condition ie other people and circumstances..... That never happens imo

God has free will and is alone having it.

I see what you're saying. Yes, I do agree. There's no truly or fully freedom to our choices. There are constraints in form of options, desires, experiences, and so on. A blind person can't freely choose to see. And God would be the only thing that could have total freedom. However, if God created us to be able to choose things, there's always some options and some freedom, even if limited, to choose, which is this "free will" concept. We're never totally free, but there's some freedom within the limitations. So even in this limited freedom of will, supposedly God created us to have it, to choose righteousness or sin. And supposedly God knew by creating this limited freedom of choice human, that sin would be introduced, which means God carries shared responsibility. From that, if a person now believe that sin is a mistake, then God was part of making this mistake happen. But, we could also think of sin to be intentional by God and not a mistake, but something necessary and part of the "perfection" of the design. Do I necessarily believe all these things? Nah. But I like to explore different aspects of the religious views of these things and what conclusions they lead to.

You don't have to answer to this post. Just kind'a rounding up some of my thoughts. (Like a closing statement.)