Does Hinduism acknowledge Jesus as an Avatar?

[Jaskaran Singh]

I couldn't disagree more. That pure radiant unsullied Hinduism is what makes it so impressive. Watered down versions just don't retain the original splendor. There is no contradiction whatsoever to work through when you start with the pure. Distilled water, with purities removed is great, but why go to all that work when a Himalayan stream contains pure water already?

But to each his/her own. If mix and match works for individuals, so be it.

I know I said that I would stop posting here, but I was convinced otherwise by NYK and shivafan.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

I know I said that I would stop posting here, but I was convinced otherwise by NYK and shivafan.

...and I am so glad you decided to.

You have so much wisdom and experience to share, it would be a pity if others missed out on that and all for the sake of a few miscreants on another forum (which I shall not mention).

Some people have nothing better to do than to troll and harass others...and do you know how to starve a troll? you just don't feed it anymore.

Just concentrate on the true essence of Hinduism and let others rip each other apart trying to dissect it and find Atma in the pages of a book somewhere...if it was that easy, the book would be a #1 best seller.

Om Namah Shivay

 

[Avi1001]

I couldn't disagree more. That pure radiant unsullied Hinduism is what makes it so impressive. Watered down versions just don't retain the original splendor. There is no contradiction whatsoever to work through when you start with the pure. Distilled water, with purities removed is great, but why go to all that work when a Himalayan stream contains pure water already?

But to each his/her own. If mix and match works for individuals, so be it.

Vinayaka, thanks for starting off what has become a very interesting thread. By the way, I will admit to you that I also am not a fan of Jesus......after all I am a Jew .

 

[Kalidas]

I know I said that I would stop posting here, but I was convinced otherwise by NYK and shivafan.

YAY! We still need to meet up friend. Talked with an Indian family at my work and they said I should go to the temple one day too. But WELCOME BACK!

 

[punkdbass]

In my opinion, Moshe was more than just a rabble rouser, he was a genocidaire (although the Jewish people on the forum are probably going to get angry at me for saying that):
31:7 And they warred against the Midianites, as the LORD commanded Moses; and they slew all the males.
31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.
31:9 And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods.
31:10 And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire.

You just equated the founder the 10 commandments (which by the way commands one not to murder) and one of the Fathers of Judaism to a "genocider," by quoting a few verses in which the Israelites were at war with other nations.

How would you like it if for every story within your own tradition that included a war, I called the protagonist a "Genocider"? How ridiculous.

 

[Sees]

You just equated the founder the 10 commandments (which by the way commands one not to murder) and one of the Fathers of Judaism to a "genocider," by quoting a few verses in which the Israelites were at war with other nations.

How would you like it if for every story within your own tradition that included a war, I called the protagonist a "Genocider"? How ridiculous.

War isn't genocide brother. Genocide in religious texts = extremely rare. What traditions have it as a divine command to exterminate others in mass besides Judaism and Islam?

 

[Stormcry]

Not at all , Hinduism doesn't consider jesus as avatara. Because No any Traditional acharyas mentioned him nor he is found in any vedic scripture.

Jesus was just a noble person like mahatna gandhi . If hindus don't consider MG who was knower of gita, as avatar, then how they could consider jesus Who hadn't any vedic knowledge, as avatara ?

If Jesus is avatara, then every spiritually learned hindu must be Avatara .

 

[punkdbass]

War isn't genocide brother. Genocide in religious texts = extremely rare. What traditions have it as a divine command to exterminate others in mass besides Judaism and Islam?

Judaism as a religion is based upon Rabbinic Judaism and is distinct from Biblical Judaism, it is a development much later than the times of the Bible. Please, get rid of your ignorance and go learn about Jewish Law - "Halakhah." If you can find where there is a "divine command" for me to commit genocide, I will give you everything I own.

People 5,000 years ago, during the time of the stories of the Tanakh did some pretty crazy things by conventional standards. Stories of mass killing, child sacrifice, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, ritual orgies.. weird times. If your going to sit here and tell me your traditions, or any ancient tradition for that matter are completely immune to these types of things then you're just delusional. But aside from being delusional, I hope you can at least know that Rabbinic Judaism - organizational Jewish religion - has absolutely nothing to do with divine genocides or murders, I'm actually laughing out loud right now to how ridiculous this is lol I should be angry.

 

[FranklinMichaelV.3]

Judaism as a religion is based upon Rabbinic Judaism and is distinct from Biblical Judaism, it is a development much later than the times of the Bible. Please, get rid of your ignorance and go learn about Jewish Law - "Halakhah." If you can find where there is a "divine command" for me to commit genocide, I will give you everything I own.

People 5,000 years ago, during the time of the stories of the Tanakh did some pretty crazy things by conventional standards. Stories of mass killing, child sacrifice, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, ritual orgies.. weird times. If your going to sit here and tell me your traditions, or any ancient tradition for that matter are completely immune to these types of things then you're just delusional. But aside from being delusional, I hope you can at least know that Rabbinic Judaism - organizational Jewish religion - has absolutely nothing to do with divine genocides or murders, I'm actually laughing out loud right now to how ridiculous this is lol I should be angry.

Yeah but this isn't the place to make this into a debate.

 

[Sees]

Judaism as a religion is based upon Rabbinic Judaism and is distinct from Biblical Judaism, it is a development much later than the times of the Bible. Please, get rid of your ignorance and go learn about Jewish Law - "Halakhah." If you can find where there is a "divine command" for me to commit genocide, I will give you everything I own.

People 5,000 years ago, during the time of the stories of the Tanakh did some pretty crazy things by conventional standards. Stories of mass killing, child sacrifice, human sacrifice, animal sacrifice, ritual orgies.. weird times. If your going to sit here and tell me your traditions, or any ancient tradition for that matter are completely immune to these types of things then you're just delusional. But aside from being delusional, I hope you can at least know that Rabbinic Judaism - organizational Jewish religion - has absolutely nothing to do with divine genocides or murders, I'm actually laughing out loud right now to how ridiculous this is lol I should be angry.

Oh I know it's not what Judaism is, but we can't expect the biblical Moses to be seen as a hero or sage outside of Abrahamic traditions. Most traditions have a very different view of theology, philosphy, morality, purpose, etc. than the "old time" biblical religion. Many Jews even

Personally I would have left out the God told/commanded so and so to do such and such parts if I was an old Jewish scribe - unless I agreed that it made sense or was true revelation in action.

 

[Avi1001]

Yeah but this isn't the place to make this into a debate.

You are correct. It seems, as was mentioned at the beginning of this post, it is a difficult discussion for the DIR.

 

[George-ananda]

I can tell you what I believe and what was said by Satya Sai Baba who is the authority I most respect.

Buddha and Jesus are often referred to as Avatars as a means of respect. However this is not technically true. There are a list of attributes that a true Avatar has. For example Buddha and Jesus learned through their lives. An Avatar is born omniscient (though at times He may play the role of a human so mankind can feel a kinship with the Lord).

There are 16 qualities of an Avatar. Here is a link to the Sanskrit names of the 16 qualities (and how the author believes they apply to the Satya Sai Baba who he believes to be an Avatar; I'm not proselytizing for anyone but this is the only clear list I can find).

16 attributes of an Avatar

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

You just equated the founder the 10 commandments (which by the way commands one not to murder) and one of the Fathers of Judaism to a "genocider," by quoting a few verses in which the Israelites were at war with other nations.

How would you like it if for every story within your own tradition that included a war, I called the protagonist a "Genocider"? How ridiculous.

Ok, I apologize. By today's standards, though, anyone murdering all the members of a specific tribe would be considered as genocidaire-s, no?

 

[punkdbass]

Oh I know it's not what Judaism is, but we can't expect the biblical Moses to be seen as a hero or sage outside of Abrahamic traditions. Most traditions have a very different view of theology, philosphy, morality, purpose, etc. than the "old time" biblical religion. Many Jews even

Personally I would have left out the God told/commanded so and so to do such and such parts if I was an old Jewish scribe - unless I agreed that it made sense or was true revelation in action.

Fair enough, and I would have as well.. I guess I just wanted to make sure you guys didn't view the Jewish people as a murderous genocidal people - antisemitism is a pretty sensitive topic to me.. but oh well, I probably can't change what any of you guys think about us by using an internet forum anyways.

I apologize for going into debate-mode there for a second, I got what I wanted out of this thread so I'll leave it at that,

Thanks all

Ok, I apologize. By today's standards, though, anyone murdering all the members of a specific tribe would be considered as genocidaire-s, no?

It's alright, I apologize for getting into debate mode there for a second.. and yeah they probably would. To be honest, although I have read the entire Tanakh and used to study Torah on a daily basis, I tend not to dwell upon those parts - like the verses you listed at all.. and I'm not going to sit here and try to rationalize those verses away.. but I would like to try and assure you all that Organizational Judaism - i.e. Rabbinic Judaism, has absolutely nothing to do with divinely commanding us to murder, or hate other people. Of the 613 commandments of Rabbinic Judaism, we are "Divinely commanded" to love both Jew and gentile as oneself, and to not murder. Anyhow, like I said, I got what I wanted out of this thread so I'll let this go,

Shalom

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

For example Buddha and Jesus learned through their lives. An Avatar is born omniscient (though at times He may play the role of a human so mankind can feel a kinship with the Lord).]

Nonsense, shrI rAma lacked the svarUpAvasthitakalA (your list of "qualities" goes by AkarShaNam-s whereas traditional lists go by kalA-s) and is informed in the rAmAyaNam of his divinity by brahmA after he reaches la~NkA. Here are some of the verses from vAlmIkirAmAyaN.net:

इति ब्रुवाणं काकुत्थ्सं ब्रह्मा ब्रह्मविदां वरः || ६-११७-१२
अब्रवीच्छृणु मे वाक्यं सत्यं सत्यपराक्रम |

12. kaakutthsam = to Rama; iti bruvaaNaam = thus speaking; brahmaa = Brahma; varaH = the foremost; brahma vidaam = among the knowers of Brahma the Absolute; abraviit = spoke (as follows); shruNu = listen; me satyam vaakyam = to my true word; satyaparaakrama = O the truly brave lord!"

Hearing the words of Rama, Brahma (the creator), the foremost among the knowers of Brahma the Absolute, spoke as follows: "Listen to my true word, O the truly brave lord!"

भवान्नारायणो देवः श्रीमांश्चक्रायुधः प्रभुः || ६-११७-१३
एकशृङ्गो वराहस्त्वं भूतभव्यसपत्नजित् |

13. bhavaan = you; prabhuH naaraayaNaH = are the Lord Narayaa himself; shriimaan devaH = the glorious god; chakraayudhaH = who wields the discus; tvam = you; varaahaH = are the divine Boar; eka shR^iN^gaH = with a single tusk; bhuuta bhavya sapatnajit = the conqueror of your past and future enemies.

"You are the Lord Narayana himself the glorious god, who wields the discus. You are the Divine Boar with a single tusk, the conqueror of your past and future enemies."

अक्षरं ब्रह्म सत्यं च मध्ये चान्ते च राघव || ६-११७-१४
लोकानां त्वं परो धर्मो विष्वक्सेनश्चतुर्भजः |

14. brahma = (you are) Brahma; akSharam = the imperishable; satyamcha = and the Truth; madhye cha antyecha = in the Middle and at the end; tvam = you are paraH dharmaH = the Supreme righteousness; lokaanaam = of people; viShvaksenaH = whose pwers go everywhere; chaturbhujaH = and the four-armed one.

"You are Brahma, the imperishable, the Truth abiding in the middle as well as at the end of the universe. You are the supreme righteousness of people, whose powers go everywhere. You are the four-armed."

शार्ङ्गधन्वा हृषीकेशः पुरुषः पुरुषोत्तमः || ६-११७-१५
अजितः खड्गधृग्विष्णुः कृष्णश्चैव महाबलः |

15. shaarN^gadhanvaa = you are the wielder of a bow; called Sharnga hR^ishiikeshaH = the lord of the senses; puruShaH = the supreme soul of the universe; puruShottamaH = the best of men; ajitaH = the invincible; khaDgadhR^ik = the wielder of a sword named Nandaka; viShNuH = the all-pervader; kR^iShNashchaiva = the bestower of happiness to the earth; mahaabalaH = and endowed with great might.

"You are the wielder of a bow called Sarnga, the lord of the senses, the supreme soul of the universe, the best of men, the invincible, the wielder of a sword named Nandaka, the all-pervader, the bestower of happiness to the earth and endowed with great might."

सेनानीर्ग्रामणीश्च त्वं त्वं बुद्धि स्त्वं क्षमा दमः || ६-११७-१६
प्रभवश्चाप्ययश्च त्वमुपेन्द्रो मधुसूदनः |

16. tvam = you; senaaniiH = are the leader of the army; graamaNiishcha = and the village headman; tvam = you; buddhiH = are the intellect; tvam = you; kShamaa = are the endurance; damaH = the subduer of the senses; tvam = you; prabhavaH = are the origin; apyayashcha = and the dissolution; upendraH = the Divine Dwarf (the younger brother of Indra); madhusuudanaH = and the destroyer of Madhu; the demon.

"You are the leader of the army and the village headman. You are the intellect. You are the endurance and the subduer of the senses. You are the origin and the dissolution of all, Upendra the Divine Dwarf and (the younger brother of Indra) as also the destroyer Madhu, the demon."

इन्द्रकर्मा महेन्द्रस्त्वं पद्मनाभो रणान्तकृत् || ६-११७-१७
शरण्यं शरणम् च त्वामहुर्दिव्या महर्षयः |

17. tvam = you; indrakarmaa = perform action for Indra the lord of celestials; mahendraH = the Supreme Ruler; padmanaabhaH = and the one having a lotus in one's navel; raNaantakR^it = and who puts an end to all in battle; divyaaH maharShayaH = the divine sages; aahuH = pronounce; tvaam = you; sharaNyam = to be fit to afford protection toa ll; sharaNam = and the refuge (for all).

"You perform action for Indra the lord of celestials, the Supreme Ruler, the one having a lotus in one's navel and who puts an end to all in battle. The divine sages pronounce you to be fit to afford protection to all and the refuge for all."

सहस्रशृङ्गो वेदात्मा शतशीर्षो महर्षभः || ६-११७-१८
त्वं त्रयाणां हि लोकानामादिकर्ता स्वयंप्रभुः |
सिद्धानामपि साध्यानामाश्रयश्चासि पूर्वजः || ६-११७-१९

18-19. vedaatmaa = In the form of the Vedas; maharShabhaH = you are the great bull; shatashiirShaH = with hundred heads (rules); sahasra shR^iNgaH = and thousand horns (precepts); tvam = you; aadikartaa = are the first creator of all; trayaaNaam lokaam = three worlds; svayamprabhuH = the self constituted Lord of all; asi = you are; aashrayaH cha = the refuge; puurvajaH = and the for bear; siddhaanaam = of Siddhas (a class of demi-gods endowed with mystic powers by virtue of their very birth) and Sadhyas (a class of celestial beings).

"In the form of the Vedas, you are the great Bull with hundred heads (rules) and thousand horns (precepts). You are the first creator of all, the three worlds, and the self constituted Lord of all. You are the refuge and the forbear of Siddhas (a class of demi-gods endowed with mystic powers by virtue of their very birth) and Sadhyas (a class of celestial beings.)"

त्वं यज्ञ्स्त्वं वषट्कारस्त्वमोंकारः परात्परः || ६-११७-२०
प्रभवं निधनं वा ते नो विदुः को भवानिति |

20. tvam = you; yajJNaH = are the sacrificial performance; tvam = you; vaShaTkaaraH = are the sacred syllable 'Vasat' (on hearing which the Adhvaryu priest casts the oblation to a deity into the sacrificial fire); tvam = you are; omkaaraH = the mysitic syllable "OM'; paraH = and higher; paraat = than the highest; nor your origin; na bhavaan kaH iti = nor who you are in reality.

"You are the sacrificial performance. You are the sacred syllable 'Vashat' (on hearing which the Adhvaryu priest casts the oblation to a deity into the sacrificial fire). You are the mystic syllable 'OM'. You are higher than the highest. People neither know your end nor your origin nor who you are in reality."

दृश्यसे सर्वभूतेषु गोषु च ब्राह्मणेषु च || ६-११७-२१
दिक्षु सर्वासु गगने पर्वतेषु नदीषु च |

21. dR^ishyase = you appear; sarvabhuuteShu = in all created beings; goShucha = in the cattle; braahmaNeShu cha = in brahmanas; sarvaasu dikShu in all quarters; gagane = in the sky; parvateShu = in mountains; nadiiShu cha = and in rivers.

"You appear in all created beings in the cattle and in brahmanas. You exist in all quarters, in the sky, in mountains and in rivers."

सहस्रचरणः श्रीमान् शतशीर्षः सहस्रदृक् || ६-११७-२२
त्वं धारयसि भूतानि पृथिवीं च सपर्वताम् |

22. sahasracharaNaH = with thousand feet; shriimaan = along with Lakshmi the goddess of wealth; shata shiirShaH = with hundred heads; sahasra dR^ik = and with thousand eyes; tvam dhaarayasi = you bear; pR^ithiviimcha = the earth; bhuutaani = with all its created beings; saparvataam = along with the mountains.

"With thousand feet, with hundred heads and with thousand eyes along with Lakshmi the goddess of wealth, you bear the earth with all its created beings along with its mountains."

अन्ते पृथिव्याः सलिले दृश्यसे त्वं महोरगः || ६-११७-२३
त्रीन् लोकान् धारयन् राम देवगन्धर्वदानवान् |

23. raama = O Rama!; tvam = you; dR^ishyase = appear; mahoragaH = as Sesha; a large serpent; salile = in water; ante pR^ithivyaaH = at the earth's bottom; dhaarayan = bearing; triin lokaan = the three worlds; devagandharva daanavaan = gods; Gandarvas the celestial musicians and the demons.

"O Rama! You appear as Sesha, a large serpent in water, at the earth's bottom, bearing the three worlds, gods, Gandharvas, the celestial musicians and the demons."

अहं ते हृदयं राम जिह्वा देवी सरस्वती || ६-११७-२४
देवा रोमाणि गात्रेषु ब्रह्मणा निर्मिताः प्रभो |

24. raama = O Rama!; aham = I (Brahma); te hR^idayam = am your heart; sarasvatii = Sarasvathi; devii = the goddess (of learning); jihvaa = is your tongue; prabho = O Lord!; sarvagaatreShu = In all your limbs; devaaH = the gods; nirmitaaH = have been created; brahmaNaa = by me; the Brahma; romaaNi = int eh form of hair.

"O Rama! I (brahma) am your heart. Saraswathi, the goddess (of learning) is your tongue. O lord! The gods created by Brahma are the hair on all your limbs."

निमेषस्ते स्मृता रात्रिरुन्मेषो दिवसस्तथा || ६-११७-२५
संस्कारास्त्वभवन्वेदा नैतदस्ति त्वया विना |

25. raatriH = Night; smR^itaa = has been recognized; te nimeShaH = as the closing of your eye-lids; tathaa = and; divasaH = the day; unmeShaH = as the opening of your eye-lids; tva samskaaraaH = the correct usages of your words; vedaaH = are the Vedas; tvayaa vinaa = bereft of you; etat = this (the visible universe); naasti bhavan = does not exist.

"Night has been recognized as the closing of your eye-lids and the day, as the opening of eye-lids. The correct usages of your words are the Vedas. Bereft of you, this visible universe does not exist."

जगत्सर्वं शरीरं ते स्थैर्यं ते वसुधातलम् || ६-११७-२६
अग्निः कोपः प्रसादस्ते सोमः श्रीवत्सलक्षणः |

26. sarvam jagat = the entire cosmos; te shariiram = is your body; vasudhaatalam = the earth; te sthairyam = constitutes your firmness; agniH = fire; kopaH = is your anger; somaH = the moon (constitutes) te prasaadaH = your placidity; shriivatsa lakShmaNaH = you are Lord Vishnu (who bears the mark Srivatsa = a curl of white hair on his breast).

"The entire cosmos is your body. The earth constitutes your firmness. Fire is your anger. The moon constitutes your placidity. You are Lord Vishnu (who bears the mark Srivatsa - a curl of white hair on his breast)."

jai shrI rAm! (sorry for going off on a tangent, )

 

[George-ananda]

Nonsense, shrI rAma lacked the svarUpAvasthitakalA (your list of "qualities" goes by AkarShaNam-s whereas traditional lists go by kalA-s)

I should have known not to trust that rascal AkarShaNam-s list when there is an authority like kalA-s around....:sorry1:

 

[Jaskaran Singh]

Fair enough, and I would have as well.. I guess I just wanted to make sure you guys didn't view the Jewish people as a murderous genocidal people - antisemitism is a pretty sensitive topic to me.

Why would I think that when Jewish people have never attacked another group in over 3000 years (well, unless you consider the Israeli-Palestianian conflict to be ethnic cleansing like commies and jihadists do)?

I should have known not to trust that rascal AkarShaNam-s list when there is an authority like kalA-s around....:sorry1:

Are you purposely misunderstanding me? I'm saying that in tAntrika practice, qualities of avatAra-s are based on kalA-s (abilities) and not AkarShaNam-s (attraction), perhaps your fellow satya sai bAbA followers have different requirements, I don't know (I'm not a sai bAbA follower). Still, it's quite obvious that I'm not talking about people, silly.

 

[Aupmanyav]

You just equated the founder the 10 commandments (which by the way commands one not to murder) and one of the Fathers of Judaism to a "genocider," by quoting a few verses in which the Israelites were at war with other nations.

How would you like it if for every story within your own tradition that included a war, I called the protagonist a "Genocider"? How ridiculous.

Mahabharata was a dark period in Hindu mythology. Perhaps Jaskiran would help me. I remember reading that Vyasa said for Mahabharata that it is what happenes when 'dharma' degenerates.

As for Moses, there are other stories as well when the Israelites killed the Cananite men, women and children, but kept the virgins for their fighters. As for Jesus, he never had the power that Moses and Mohammad had. Otherwise his would not have stopped at just cursing the cities.

"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum,
which art exalted unto heaven,
shalt be brought down to hell:
for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

 

[Aupmanyav]

People 5,000 years ago, during the time of the stories of the Tanakh did some pretty crazy things by conventional standards.

Evidence suggests that the process of canonization occurred between 200 BC and 200 AD. A popular position is that the Torah was canonized circa 400 BC, the Prophets circa 200 BC, and the Writings circa 100 CE, perhaps at a hypothetical Council of Jamnia. This position, however, is increasingly criticized by modern scholars. Some scholars argue that the Jewish canon was fixed by the Hasmonean dynasty (140-37 BCE).
Tanakh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Kalidas]

Mahabharata was a dark period in Hindu mythology. Perhaps Jaskiran would help me. I remember reading that Vyasa said for Mahabharata that it is what happenes when 'dharma' degenerates.

As for Moses, there are other stories as well when the Israelites killed the Cananite men, women and children, but kept the virgins for their fighters. As for Jesus, he never had the power that Moses and Mohammad had. Otherwise his would not have stopped at just cursing the cities.

"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum,
which art exalted unto heaven,
shalt be brought down to hell:
for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee."

Is the Mahabharata the only Hindu story in which there was a great War of man versus man? It also was more than that! It was FAMILY vs FAMILY. The Pandavas went to war with their own flesh and blood...to maintain dharma of course. I don't think it's a coincidence that shortly after the Mahabharata Kali Yuga began