Does it matter if Jesus isn't god?

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe the answer to that question depends on what God expects of us. We can read the scriptures of the Bible and see exactly what God expects of us. Is Abraham in heaven? Did Abraham believe that Jesus is God? I doubt that he did. But I have no way of knowing that for sure. I do not recall Abraham mentioning anything about Jesus. But then I suppose, if Jesus is God, then Jesus would be the one to determine whether or not Abraham was living a life to merit eternal life with Him, whether or not Abraham actually believed that 'Jesus' was God's true name.

Let me say this: Believe in me, that what I am about to tell you is necessary and true, and you shall be saved.

Believe what the Bible says, every word, and you shall be saved. If there is something you do not understand, then just do exactly what you do understand. If you read something in the Bible that doesn't feel right to you, believe it anyway for the sake of your salvation and desire to please God, and you shall be saved.

If you happen to listen to me, and believe in me, and if as a result you become saved, who is it who has saved you from the eternal destruction that the Bible says you deserve?

I'm trying to figure how Abraham has to do with whether or not it is important Jesus is god?

 

[Sonofason]

I'm trying to figure how Abraham has to do with whether or not it is important Jesus is god?

It is important that God is God. I am only pointing out that a belief that Jesus is God may not be necessary for salvation. If Jesus is God, he is certainly capable of saving us. If Jesus is not God, but is the Son of God, then I would expect that Jesus has the power to save us from our sins. If Jesus is just a man, who steers us in the right direction of salvation, then we shall be saved. So I guess I'm suggesting that it might not matter if Jesus is God. What is important is that God is God, and that we are heading in the right direction. If Jesus is God and is an ego maniac, I suppose it might matter if He is God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Let me put it this way. If you were drowning in the ocean, and someone came along and carried you (swimming of course) to the beach, you would be saved. Is that not correct?

So what saved you? Was it the person who swam you to the beach, or was it the beach itself? Obviously, if the beach wasn't there, we both would drown. If we are directed in the wrong direction we shall be lost. If we are directed in the right direction we shall be saved.

If a person was hanging off a cliff and another person came to reach him, both being human, what means would that person falling on the cliff want to be saved knowing that he will take the life of the person saving them? Would it be more understandable to thinking of the other person and not oneself regardless if that person offered?

Should it matter that the person who wants to save you is god (given he can't die). By reaching for his/her help you'd be thinking of yourself because your intent was was the same as above, to use that person to save yourself knowing that he/she will fall regardless if he/she is god?

Both are in the same position with the same intent. Being god shouldn't change that, right?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

It is important that God is God. I am only pointing out that a belief that Jesus is God may not be necessary for salvation. If Jesus is God, he is certainly capable of saving us. If Jesus is not God, but is the Son of God, then I would expect that Jesus has the power to save us from our sins. If Jesus is just a man, who steers us in the right direction of salvation, then we shall be saved. So I guess I'm suggesting that it might not matter if Jesus is God. What is important is that God is God, and that we are heading in the right direction. If Jesus is God and is an ego maniac, I suppose it might matter if He is God.

That makes sense. I'd think if Jesus is god, then salvation is just the same given its god. If he wasn't god, then, Christians would still be saved because he is sent by god and in god's likeness. I think a lot of Christians want to see Jesus as god given the likeness he says he has with his father. I say it's a misguided way of seeing what Jesus taught. However, I don't see a problem with either regardless if one interprets Jesus' teachings one way or another.

 

[Sonofason]

That makes sense. I'd think if Jesus is god, then salvation is just the same given its god. If he wasn't god, then, Christians would still be saved because he is sent by god and in god's likeness. I think a lot of Christians want to see Jesus as god given the likeness he says he has with his father. I say it's a misguided way of seeing what Jesus taught. However, I don't see a problem with either regardless if one interprets Jesus' teachings one way or another.

I believe you are correct. I believe the focus of Jesus' message was that we trust in him and therefore trust in everything he told us, that he has an intimate relationship with God, and that if we live our lives in the way that he lived his, we would be saved. I do not believe that the focus of his message was that he was the Son of God, or that he was God, but that he knows God intimately, that he knows what God expects of us, and that we ought to trust him and do what he said. If a person were to have a true relationship with the one and only true God, and then were to hear the message of Jesus, that person would recognize the light of God in him and know that he indeed was presenting a valid message and means to salvation.

By definition, a Christian is a follower of Christ. Abraham was not a Christian, but I expect that he has his place in heaven, not because he knew whether or not Jesus existed, and not because he knew whether or not Jesus was God, but because he was following Christ's message whether he knew it or not. Christ message was not about our relationship with him but about our relationship with God, it was about being obedient to God, it was about believing God. If we follow Christ, we do what he says, and he says love and obey God, he says love one another. He says repent from our sins, etc...

It could be that Jesus is God, and that he came down here to show us by example how we ought to live in such a way that is pleasing to God.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe you are correct. I believe the focus of Jesus' message was that we trust in him and therefore trust in everything he told us, that he has an intimate relationship with God, and that if we live our lives in the way that he lived his, we would be saved. I do not believe that the focus of his message was that he was the Son of God, or that he was God, but that he knows God intimately, that he knows what God expects of us, and that we ought to trust him and do what he said. If a person were to have a true relationship with the one and only true God, and then were to hear the message of Jesus, that person would recognize the light of God in him and know that he indeed was presenting a valid message and means to salvation.

By definition, a Christian is a follower of Christ. Abraham was not a Christian, but I expect that he has his place in heaven, not because he knew whether or not Jesus existed, and not because he knew whether or not Jesus was God, but because he was following Christ's message whether he knew it or not. Christ message was not about our relationship with him but about our relationship with God, it was about being obedient to God, it was about believing God. If we follow Christ, we do what he says, and he says love and obey God, he says love one another. He says repent from our sins, etc...

It could be that Jesus is God, and that he came down here to show us by example how we ought to live in such a way that is pleasing to God.

I'd agree from what I know of scripture up until the last sentence. I know personally, if I were Christian I would see Jesus as an example and likeness of god. Once I see him as god, it sounds like an insult to what Jesus taught in the new testament and what got said in the old testament. I'd be in the same train of thought as a Muslim or Jew when it comes to seeing a human as the creator.

As for my own beliefs, I wouldn't see the Bible or any book as sacred text to learn about life/god. The Bible is the people, the earth, and everything that makes what life is. So, seeing Jesus as god is the same as seeing myself as god. We are all a part of life, the creator included (of so exists).

Those are my thoughts.

 

[Sonofason]

I'd agree from what I know of scripture up until the last sentence. I know personally, if I were Christian I would see Jesus as an example and likeness of god. Once I see him as god, it sounds like an insult to what Jesus taught in the new testament and what got said in the old testament. I'd be in the same train of thought as a Muslim or Jew when it comes to seeing a human as the creator.

As for my own beliefs, I wouldn't see the Bible or any book as sacred text to learn about life/god. The Bible is the people, the earth, and everything that makes what life is. So, seeing Jesus as god is the same as seeing myself as god. We are all a part of life, the creator included (of so exists).

Those are my thoughts.

Well, I don't necessarily believe in my own last sentence either. I offered it only as a possibility, because I have no way of knowing, not that we ought to believe he was actually God. The fact is, I believe that I would be doing a great injustice to God to even suggest that Jesus is God. He isn't in my opinion. But I do believe he is nearest to God than any human being has ever been; and so I have faith in what he has said.

 

[Desert Snake]

For Christianity to work as Paul states, he has to be divine; else it would be human sacrifice, and thus not atoning, because it defiles the Law (Torah).

Jesus changed the Torah laws.

I'd agree from what I know of scripture up until the last sentence. I know personally, if I were Christian I would see Jesus as an example and likeness of god. Once I see him as god, it sounds like an insult to what Jesus taught in the new testament and what got said in the old testament. I'd be in the same train of thought as a Muslim or Jew when it comes to seeing a human as the creator.

As for my own beliefs, I wouldn't see the Bible or any book as sacred text to learn about life/god. The Bible is the people, the earth, and everything that makes what life is. So, seeing Jesus as god is the same as seeing myself as god. We are all a part of life, the creator included (of so exists).

Those are my thoughts.

The point is, you aren't a Christian. So, your statement as to what theoretically, you would think about Jesus, if you were, are pretty much moot. What is the relevance? If you don't believe the Bible, and aren't a Christian, then, why would your fictional opinion, mean anything?

 

[wizanda]

Jesus changed the Torah laws.

Matthew 5:18 For most certainly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from The Law, until all things are accomplished.

Still things needed to be accomplished....

 

[wizanda]

And, relevance, to non-Israelites?

If you want to say we can use the Law for atonement, and then in the next say it isn't applicable to us....Do you know what we call someone who does that?

 

[Desert Snake]

If you want to say we can use the Law for atonement, and then in the next say it isn't applicable to us....Do you know what we call someone who does that?

Aside from the fact that I don't know how you are interpreting what Israelite, so forth, mean, actually, the law can be used for atonement, according to the Bible. It merely isn't the best way to approach the situation.

 

[wizanda]

the law can be used for atonement, according to the Bible.

Yes, yet there are Laws within the same text you're using for atonement Laws, against human sacrifice, drinking the blood of an offering, etc; none of the Laws have been removed, one justification is as Paul has put, that being divine, makes it acceptable.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yes, yet there are Laws within the same text you're using for atonement Laws, against human sacrifice, drinking the blood of an offering, etc; none of the Laws have been removed, one justification is as Paul has put, that being divine, makes it acceptable.

This is your interpretation of the Bible. The 'sacrifice', is conditional, and not the same as the temple sacrifices. The remembrance ceremony, communion, is symbolic. How are those 'wrong'?

 

[Desert Snake]

I guess all the criticism of the Pharisees, so forth, breaking the Shabbat, and changing the laws outright, was just metaphorical.

 

[wizanda]

The remembrance ceremony, communion, is symbolic. How are those 'wrong'?

Because within the Synoptic Gospels, Yeshua only said to share bread in remembrance of him; it was the later Christian church who established communion with wine.

Revelation 16:6 For they shed the blood of the saints and the prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they are accountable.

Drinking the blood of a offering isn't acceptable, and it being a human, makes people guilty of the sacrifice.

and changing the laws outright, was just metaphorical.

Yeshua was challenging their made up Oral Traditions, which they claim all comes from Moses; yet some of it only existed 150 years before Yeshua.

 

[Desert Snake]

Yeshua was challenging their made up Oral Traditions, which they claim all comes from Moses; yet some of it only existed 150 years before Yeshua.

I think you need to specify that in your arguments, then, because, we don't necessarily know what you are implying when you say 'law'. If one says 'Torah laws', we can assume it means all the laws specified in the Torah, /not necessarily Rabbinical Judaism. /

 

[wizanda]

I think you need to specify that in your arguments

My argument was about using the Torah laws; you brought up Yeshua criticizing the Pharisees, which was about their own made up oral traditions.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Jesus changed the Torah laws.


The point is, you aren't a Christian. So, your statement as to what theoretically, you would think about Jesus, if you were, are pretty much moot. What is the relevance? If you don't believe the Bible, and aren't a Christian, then, why would your fictional opinion, mean anything?

Always one person.

Since this isnt comparative religion and not a DIR,I will say my opinions are not fiction.

If you have nothing productive to contribute to my threads, dont post. Its a HUGE pet peeve seeing these threads created and you have that one person say "but Im the exception" or "that doesnt apply to me" or challenging the OP over a non related subject.

(It's) Silly.

Anyway. I wasnt talking to you. Why comment?

 

[Desert Snake]

Always one person.

Since this isnt comparative religion and not a DIR,I will say my opinions are not fiction.

If you have nothing productive to contribute to my threads, dont post. Its a HUGE pet peeve seeing these threads created and you have that one person say "but Im the exception" or "that doesnt apply to me" or challenging the OP over a non related subject.

(It's) Silly.

I think it's silly to make too broad statements about adherence to said religions.

Anyway. I wasnt talking to you. Why comment?

Why not? You posted in the general debates section. If you want a one on one conversation, there is pm , or specific religion, denomination DIR's.

 

[Desert Snake]

My argument was about using the Torah laws; you brought up Yeshua criticizing the Pharisees, which was about their own made up oral traditions.

Therefore, are you practicing a type of Torah 'true', Judaism?