Does it matter if Jesus isn't god?

[Unveiled Artist]

I think it's silly to make too broad statements about adherence to said religions.

What do you mean?

Why not? You posted in the general debates section. If you want a one on one conversation, there is pm , or specific religion, denomination DIR's.

If it's not productive or something I can learn from or challenge not argue over, then I wonder why people (other people do it too) reply. I catch myself thinking "but he's wrong. He should know this or that" but then I have to step and say "is that my place to say that or is he or she just sharing their experience or opinion" type of thing.

Kinda have to discern the context of what people talk about. In this case, I was telling him my experience and how it related to the conversation. I wasn't proven anything wrong or challenging a religion.

If you'd comment in a more even tone, then that would have been understood. However, my experiences and beliefs are not fictional and they are relevant to whomever I speak with that wants to converse. I hate one-sided conversations.

 

[Desert Snake]

What do you mean?



If it's not productive or something I can learn from or challenge not argue over, then I wonder why people (other people do it too) reply. I catch myself thinking "but he's wrong. He should know this or that" but then I have to step and say "is that my place to say that or is he or she just sharing their experience or opinion" type of thing.

Kinda have to discern the context of what people talk about. In this case, I was telling him my experience and how it related to the conversation. I wasn't proven anything wrong or challenging a religion.

If you'd comment in a more even tone, then that would have been understood. However, my experiences and beliefs are not fictional and they are relevant to whomever I speak with that wants to converse. I hate one-sided conversations.

The problem with presenting a theoretical , fictional position, as an example, is that it may not take into consideration the actual beliefs/ religious adherence, that is being followed. So, when you say that if you believed that Jesus is G-d, /theoretical/, you then follow with the contradictory position of thinking /theoretically/, that Jesus is a man. A man who is a god? The fact that people consider Jesus as God, usually excludes the position of also considering Jesus a man, /not a god

Your theoretical position, the example, doesn't make sense.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I have to discet the conversation to understand what you are talking about because your first comment was not saying "this doesn't make sense, this is why" it was saying "your opinions are fake. why ask". The former is reflective and easier to talk about. The latter is an insult.

The problem with presenting a theoretical , fictional position, as an example, is that it may not take into consideration the actual beliefs/ religious adherence, that is being followed. So, when you say that if you believed that Jesus is G-d, /theoretical/, you then follow with the contradictory position of thinking /theoretically/, that Jesus is a man. A man who is a god? The fact that people consider Jesus as God, usually excludes the position of also considering Jesus a man, /not a god

Your theoretical position, the example, doesn't make sense.

What I said in post 26 to @Sonofason was that I agreed with him up until that last part, and I expressed my opinion (as we were both exchanging views)

I'd agree from what I know of scripture up until the last sentence. I know personally, if I were Christian I would see Jesus as an example and likeness of god. Once I see him as god, it sounds like an insult to what Jesus taught in the new testament and what got said in the old testament. I'd be in the same train of thought as a Muslim or Jew when it comes to seeing a human as the creator.​

I can rephrase this, when I was Christian, I saw Jess as an example and likeness of god. Once I see him as god, it sounds like an insult to what Jesus (actually) taught in the NT and what god (not got) said in the OT. I would be in the same train of thought as a Muslim, Jew, Jehovah's Witness, um.. who else, I think LDS, who do not believe Jesus as god.

My point was a direct comment and opinion from Sonofan. It wasn't a new topic or direction. I was just saying "hey, if I (or when I) believed Y, this is how I saw it... now that I believe Z, this is how I see Y now.

​

I don't understand how that doesn't make sense?

Now, you could have just said, "hey, Carlita.. that doesn't make sense, this is why...yada yada yada" but instead you did:

The point is, you aren't a Christian. So, your statement as to what theoretically, you would think about Jesus, if you were, are pretty much moot. What is the relevance? If you don't believe the Bible, and aren't a Christian, then, why would your fictional opinion, mean anything?​

It's not theoretical. It is based on personal experience and relationship with the sacraments. That is something I can never create theoretically. (I don't find it wrong to have theoretical conversations regardless)

The relevance is that I brought up the topic, and Sonofason and I came to a mutual understanding of each other's differing beliefs. I hoped I didn't step on his/her beliefs. He/she didn't step on mine. We are happy.

Why would my fictional opinion mean anything? That is an insult right there. It is not fictional any more than your experiences with Jesus are fictional. Sorry, you have the wrong person in this. All my experiences are literal. Not many atheist on RF would say that. However, the world isn't made up of people on RF, so.. think out of the box. I am a person. Ask before assuming.

By the way, my post 26 was not a challenging comment. Maybe you took it that way, I dont know?

My question was why comment if my comments are irrelevant to you and fictional? What is your goal for this conversation? I know why I don't mind talking to you. (Remember. I wasn't talking to you)
​

Your last quote:

The problem with presenting a theoretical , fictional position, as an example, is that it may not take into consideration the actual beliefs/ religious adherence, that is being followed. So, when you say that if you believed that Jesus is G-d, /theoretical/, you then follow with the contradictory position of thinking /theoretically/, that Jesus is a man. A man who is a god? The fact that people consider Jesus as God, usually excludes the position of also considering Jesus a man, /not a god

Your theoretical position, the example, doesn't make sense.

Not everything that is seen as theoretical is fictional. How do those two words relate? If you don't like "What-if" questions, why reply?

The Blue: No. Please ask for clarification or if something doesn't make sense, please say so nicely.

I don't see how the Blue relates. I said if I were Christian (okay, I'll change, when I was Christian), I did not see Jesus as god (I would not have). It isn't fictional. Millions of people do not believe Jesus is god and they are Christians. Mainstream Christianity doesn't hold a monopoly on Christian truth.

Other than that, you'd need to rephrase that because What-If questions aren't always fictional.​

Saying my opinion is fictional is like saying all my experiences are fake. I would never say that to any ex-Christian on this site who gave life to Christ and felt his life was better in someone else's "arms". If anything, at least that Ex-Christian can say "Yes, I experienced Jesus and I am not now a Hindu" (or whatever).

Edit: 27 wraps up our (Son- and I) mutual understanding. If my opinions are fictional to you, why reply to them? How are they relevant to you?

 

[Desert Snake]

I have to discet the conversation to understand what you are talking about because your first comment was not saying "this doesn't make sense, this is why" it was saying "your opinions are fake. why ask". The former is reflective and easier to talk about. The latter is an insult.



What I said in post 26 to @Sonofason was that I agreed with him up until that last part, and I expressed my opinion (as we were both exchanging views)

I'd agree from what I know of scripture up until the last sentence. I know personally, if I were Christian I would see Jesus as an example and likeness of god. Once I see him as god, it sounds like an insult to what Jesus taught in the new testament and what got said in the old testament. I'd be in the same train of thought as a Muslim or Jew when it comes to seeing a human as the creator.​

I can rephrase this, when I was Christian, I saw Jess as an example and likeness of god. Once I see him as god, it sounds like an insult to what Jesus (actually) taught in the NT and what god (not got) said in the OT. I would be in the same train of thought as a Muslim, Jew, Jehovah's Witness, um.. who else, I think LDS, who do not believe Jesus as god.

My point was a direct comment and opinion from Sonofan. It wasn't a new topic or direction. I was just saying "hey, if I (or when I) believed Y, this is how I saw it... now that I believe Z, this is how I see Y now.

​

I don't understand how that doesn't make sense?

Now, you could have just said, "hey, Carlita.. that doesn't make sense, this is why...yada yada yada" but instead you did:

The point is, you aren't a Christian. So, your statement as to what theoretically, you would think about Jesus, if you were, are pretty much moot. What is the relevance? If you don't believe the Bible, and aren't a Christian, then, why would your fictional opinion, mean anything?​

It's not theoretical. It is based on personal experience and relationship with the sacraments. That is something I can never create theoretically. (I don't find it wrong to have theoretical conversations regardless)

The relevance is that I brought up the topic, and Sonofason and I came to a mutual understanding of each other's differing beliefs. I hoped I didn't step on his/her beliefs. He/she didn't step on mine. We are happy.

Why would my fictional opinion mean anything? That is an insult right there. It is not fictional any more than your experiences with Jesus are fictional. Sorry, you have the wrong person in this. All my experiences are literal. Not many atheist on RF would say that. However, the world isn't made up of people on RF, so.. think out of the box. I am a person. Ask before assuming.

By the way, my post 26 was not a challenging comment. Maybe you took it that way, I dont know?

My question was why comment if my comments are irrelevant to you and fictional? What is your goal for this conversation? I know why I don't mind talking to you. (Remember. I wasn't talking to you)
​

Your last quote:


Not everything that is seen as theoretical is fictional. How do those two words relate? If you don't like "What-if" questions, why reply?

The Blue: No. Please ask for clarification or if something doesn't make sense, please say so nicely.

I don't see how the Blue relates. I said if I were Christian (okay, I'll change, when I was Christian), I did not see Jesus as god (I would not have). It isn't fictional. Millions of people do not believe Jesus is god and they are Christians. Mainstream Christianity doesn't hold a monopoly on Christian truth.

Other than that, you'd need to rephrase that because What-If questions aren't always fictional.​

Saying my opinion is fictional is like saying all my experiences are fake. I would never say that to any ex-Christian on this site who gave life to Christ and felt his life was better in someone else's "arms". If anything, at least that Ex-Christian can say "Yes, I experienced Jesus and I am not a Hindu" (or whatever).

For clarity, I'm not a ''mainstream Christian'', /assuming we know what that is/. I'm not even a ''Christian'', or at least, i don't call myself that. There are other Bible adherents who don't call themselves that, by the way. My theology is a type of modalism, or non-trinitarian , although trinity in merely descriptive sense is ok with me.
Anyways, the problem is, how can we take these theoretical positions as legitimate examples for criticism? The fact that one does not adhere to the ideas, is an indication that one does not or did not, consider the religious ideas, to be true enough, to adhere to. Or, that the position presented, is wrong, in the first place, //the theoretical position.
That is why in the DIR's, for example, people have to be practicing that faith, in the first place, to answer the questions posed. This avoids false answers, and also avoids , criticism that is biased, for whatever reason.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

For clarity, I'm not a ''mainstream Christian'', /assuming we know what that is/. I'm not even a ''Christian'', or at least, i don't call myself that. There are other Bible adherents who don't call themselves that, by the way. My theology is a type of monarchism, or non-trinitarian , although trinity in merely descriptive sense is ok with me.
Anyways, the problem is, how can we take these theoretical positions as legitimate examples for criticism? The fact that one does not adhere to the ideas, is an indication that one does not or did not, consider the religious ideas, to be true enough, to adhere to. Or, that the position presented, is wrong, in the first place, //the theoretical position.
That is why in the DIR's, for example, people have to be practicing that faith, in the first place, to answer the questions posed. This avoids false answers, and also avoids , criticism that is biased, for whatever reason.

Um. Okaay. This flips my understanding. Okay. we are both not Christian. So, if I took your view, how would your comments be relevant to Christianity?

That and this wasn't originally in a DIR. It was meant to ask all people who identify as Christians to answer with whatever support, why they think it is important to believe Jesus is god or why not or does it matter. Since mainstream Christianity doesn't hold the definition of who Jesus is god or not, it's not fictional. It's using what people already believe in and getting different opinions from a more broad audience rather than a one-sided discussion between all jesus-god believers or jesus-man believers.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

In certain, if not many, contexts, my comments aren't relevant to Christianity.

It's unclear as to how you are describing Jesus. You said that you experienced Him, but you also said that he is merely a man, right? How did that happen?

I believe the souls/spirits of the deceased live and protect us, their loved ones as we will do the next generation when we pass. So, I don't see Jesus as an exclusion with that.​

I took the Church sacraments and had a physical connection with Christ. That connection let me experience Christ spirit (above), his flesh/my sin, his Crucifixion/my repentance, and his resurrection/my everlasting life.

I guess you can say the physical nature of Christianity/Christ is how I experienced him in spirit. Which sounds backwards to most. They feel the spirit comes first and the physical supplements it. Tomato tomato.

I believe that all humans have souls. Their souls survive after death going to the next stage or transition in life. Jesus is no exception.

Jesus has to be man to save humanity. (In my OP, I said my view but more focused on others). God can't live among sinners, be tortured, die in front of them, raise so that everyone can see him float to heaven, and sit at the right hand of himself. That's why god has a medium between himself and man because he can't be around sin. That medium has to be a man because we are men. He has to be the Son of Man not just the Son of God... and so forth.

If Jesus were god, then the Bible is a hypocrite. A sinless man walking among sinners but his father/himself is saying he (he father) cant be around sin to begin with.

The confusion is "how can a man be perfect and not be god". Ask god. That's how scripture laid it out. 99 percent of us are not perfect but one Son of Man is. (not the content, the context)

If one wants to see Jesus as man, at least they can relate because both are human. As long as they see him as god, they will bow before him. I never felt comfortable with worship. So it depends on the person. It doesn't seem like Christians have a strong doctrine even on who Christ is.

I mean, why expect other people who aren't Christian to not use theoretical when the belief system itself is so varied that to try to use facts instead of theories would be only acknowledging one group of people (one-sided convo) where theoretical engage all. If people are patient enough to think beyond content.

 

[wizanda]

Therefore, are you practicing a type of Torah 'true', Judaism?

Nope i don't follow it; just observing that you can't say you're using the Law to say you can have jesus as a atoning sacrifice, and then say the Law doesn't apply to us in the next breath.

 

[Muffled]

I couldn't find this in the search. I am dead serious. Simple question.

Does it matter if Jesus is not god?​

This is my position: Jesus is not god. Does it matter? No. I won't get into why. Ya'll probably know why from me already. So, I won't debate my position.

Just a simple answer and support. Does it matter if Jesus is not god?

If you don't like If questions: Jesus is god and does it matter? Why?​

I don't want to know if Jesus is god or not. I already accepted what I know and studied. I just want to know does it matter if he is not.

Audience: Christians who believe Jesus is god. If you use scripture, add commentary. However, don't use scripture to prove he is god; I know and understand your position.

What would happen if Jesus was not god? If a human saved humanity from their sins? Is it possible? Why or why not?​

I would have put this in Interfaith; but, topics like this are treated as debates even though to a lot of us who pose similar questions, we do not want it to be so. Please be civilized and unique in your answers.

I believe first of all it would mean that Isaiah was a false prophet. Second it would mean that God didn't give a **** about us finding us to be expendable when convenient.Third it would take away our hope of salvation.

I believe I thank God none of that is true.

 

[Muffled]

I'd say they still have the same avenue to god. Would a christian turn down Jesus if god made a perfect human to be a medium between god and man?

I believe before I knew Jesus was God I accepted the love he showed by dying for me but at that time God was someone to be feared and kept at a long distance.

I believe having Jesus as God brings the love of God into reality and takes away a lot of the fear.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe first of all it would mean that Isaiah was a false prophet. Second it would mean that God didn't give a **** about us finding us to be expendable when convenient.Third it would take away our hope of salvation.

I believe I thank God none of that is true.

Thank you for your honest answer. I dont know much about Isiah if anything. As for god not carring, if he sent a perfect human that is like himself to save you how would that be different? Is our humanity defined by our imperfection?

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe before I knew Jesus was God I accepted the love he showed by dying for me but at that time God was someone to be feared and kept at a long distance.

I believe having Jesus as God brings the love of God into reality and takes away a lot of the fear.

Nice. What does it mean to you to say "jesus was human"? What would be different between his perfection and mission as a human or as god? Especiappy coming from god himself.

Do you think its more personal preference, like how you vision jesus as god to releave fear?

 

[Muffled]

Thank you for your honest answer. I dont know much about Isiah if anything. As for god not carring, if he sent a perfect human that is like himself to save you how would that be different? Is our humanity defined by our imperfection?

I believe it doesn't matter if the man is perfect or not. If he is not god he is man and we are all in the same boat in relationship to God, If He doesn't care then He can mess with us any way He wants and that wouldn't be good, sort of like having Hitler as your god.

 

[Muffled]

Nice. What does it mean to you to say "jesus was human"? What would be different between his perfection and mission as a human or as god? Especiappy coming from god himself.

Do you think its more personal preference, like how you vision jesus as god to releave fear?

I believe one never knows what it is like until one walks in another person's shoes. God could never say, I know what it is like for people to hurt me or spit on me. He wouldn't know what it was like to suffer hunger and heat. I want Him to know firsthand what I am going through so He thoroughly understands what it is like.

I don't believe so. Knowing it was God who died for me changed the relationship from that of fear to one of love. However it wasn't that I was seeking that but simply it came as a package deal. I could have lived with a fearsome God but it is a very different relationship.

The only difference between them regarding perfection is that God has the authority and a perfect human only has delegated authority ie he can't make decisions on the spot. As for mission only God can forgive sins. A perfect human may be delegated to do so but a person will always wonder if it is so until hearing it from the horses mouth.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I believe it doesn't matter if the man is perfect or not. If he is not god he is man and we are all in the same boat in relationship to God, If He doesn't care then He can mess with us any way He wants and that wouldn't be good, sort of like having Hitler as your god.

I don't know if I agree or not.

If Jesus were a man, he would be perfect still and still have be one with god. He would still be the representation of god as he is god's son. So, there wouldn't be a change other than how the christian wants to relate to Jesus (believe he is god to relieve fear among others reasons from other Christians) or the Christian interprets "Jesus being human" as if him being a sinner.

My focus is that if Jesus were human, that would not make him a sinner nor be equal to Hitler. It just means, he can relate to humans on a personal level. As god, he can't because god cannot be present where sin is.​

There is a beautiful movie that shows my point: The Priest. A priest (Greg) had trouble with his homosexuality (not the point). He listened to a confession of a ten year old girl who was being abused by her father. They went through the pain together because no one knew each other's pain but each other. No one knew the girl's pain and the congregation disowned Greg from the Church rather than offering him forgiveness as he forgives them in Christ every Mass. (It's a British movie, so ratings are different so not for kids.)

When Greg prayed and was talking to his friend, he says:

He [Jesus] wasn't human enough, the Son of God. He had certainty. He knew it all with absolute certainty. Well, give me that, and fine, no problem. you can crucify me as well. All the agonies of the world no bloody problem whatsoever because I'd be certain that god exists; but, I'm not certain. All I've got is faith.​

If Jesus were human sent by god, he would have a more personal relationship with humans. He wouldn't be a sinner but a way for Christians to die in him (as in Galatians) rather than depending on him on hand and foot. Instead, he would give them hope so they can carry their own crosses rather than depend on Jesus to carry it for them.

The Bible is more personal, in my opinion, when Jesus is human. Once you make him god then he loose that person to person contact and makes it more of "I want to be like Jesus" as I heard a little boy, five I think, say when I came from Mass. Was sooo cute. Instead of saying, "I am like Jesus". Now you are saying, "I am with god [heaven]" not "I have faith he is with me] Makes it concrete when you say "I am like Jesus" instead.

I am like Jesus because through him, I am with god. We are all children of god and now I can share in that kingdom because Jesus is human and as a human, he can now take on the sins of the world because by his flesh he becomes the flesh/sin of humanity. If he were god, he cannot take on the agonies of the world if he cannot be in the presence of sin.

Anyway, I can go on. If I were Christian, this is exactly how I'd see it. However, the Church doesn't teach this and I love the Church, so...

Anyway... Sorry, I went off point. I hope you read this. Personal testimony of how I saw Jesus.

That's why I don't understand this "If he is not god he is man and we are all in the same boat in relationship to God, If He doesn't care then He can mess with us any way He wants and that wouldn't be good, sort of like having Hitler as your god."

If Jesus was human, he would be in the same boat as us not as a sinner but as flesh so he can take on our sins and relate to him as humans. It doesn't devalue Jesus. We are just saying "let him be human enough" to relate to humanity.

I don't understand if he were man, why wouldn't he care. If he is doing the will of his father, one with his father in perfection, of course he'd care.
​

In my humble opinion, that sounds like a depressive way to see humans and humanity. I don't see humanity that way-evil etc (as from a collection of Christians not yourself personally) so seeing Jesus as human is a blessing not a curse.

 

[Muffled]

Nope i don't follow it; just observing that you can't say you're using the Law to say you can have jesus as a atoning sacrifice, and then say the Law doesn't apply to us in the next breath.

I believe Jesus is the fulfillment of the law. So if atoning fulfills the law it is perfectly valid. However if Jesus says I can eat shellfish contrary tothe written law His fulfillment of the law is that I can eat shellfish.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I couldn't find this in the search. I am dead serious. Simple question.

Does it matter if Jesus is not god?​

This is my position: Jesus is not god. Does it matter? No. I won't get into why. Ya'll probably know why from me already. So, I won't debate my position.

Just a simple answer and support. Does it matter if Jesus is not god?

If you don't like If questions: Jesus is god and does it matter? Why?​

I don't want to know if Jesus is god or not. I already accepted what I know and studied. I just want to know does it matter if he is not.

Audience: Christians who believe Jesus is god. If you use scripture, add commentary. However, don't use scripture to prove he is god; I know and understand your position.

What would happen if Jesus was not god? If a human saved humanity from their sins? Is it possible? Why or why not?​

I would have put this in Interfaith; but, topics like this are treated as debates even though to a lot of us who pose similar questions, we do not want it to be so. Please be civilized and unique in your answers.

It only matters that some people think he is.

 

[Muffled]

It only matters that some people think he is.

I don't believe I understand why you think what other people think matters. People are often wrong about things. I believe it only matters if it is true.

 

[Sand Dancer]

I don't think it matters at all. He still gave two great commandments and the Sermon on the Mount. Good advice.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

I don't believe I understand why you think what other people think matters. People are often wrong about things. I believe it only matters if it is true.

It matters to them because they're wrong.

 

[Muffled]

It matters to them because they're wrong.

I believe it does matter because there are those who wish God to forgive their sins but have no rationale to believe it. A correct belief about Jesus being God would save them a lot of suffering.