syo
Well-Known Member
Because he is the Son. The Son is part of the Trinity. He is not the Creator, that's the Father.
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Does it matter if Jesus isn't god?
- Thread starter Unveiled Artist
- Start date
Desert Snake
Veteran Member
So, explain why the human incarnation G-d, can be G-d, as opposed to the ''other'' deity, which you seem to be referring to? The question is rather, how does xianity work if Jesus isn't G-d?
/If Jesus is a separate deity, it's polytheism
/If Jesus is merely a man, then why does Scripture call Him G-d, and the father, even, calls Him G-d, in the book of Hebrews
merely two questions that presumably cannot be answered, except in a non-monotheistic manner, and a manner that refutes Scripture.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
syo
Well-Known Member
Orthodox Christians believe in the Trinity.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I actually think this is a simple concept to understand.
Jesus has the same divinity as his father. He is not his father. I have the same blood as my mother. I am not my mother.
Jesus sharing in god's divinity doesn't make him god
My sharing my mother's (and father's) blood doesn't make me my parents.
Since Jesus shares in his father's divinity (hence being his son), he can still save Christians from their sins.
How does Christianity work?
Same as it usually does. Saying it doesn't, is calling god a lier. It's just a change of perspective. Instead of worshiping Jesus as god, a Christian (in my opinion) should be worshiping god through Jesus. "I am the Way" Way-path, intermediary "no one get's to the father expect through me".
JW, Muslim, Jews, (I don't know abuto LDS), among others, and other believers in the god of Abraham get how a human can be divine (say a prophet) without being the creator himself. JW are Christians.
Why does mainstream Christianity don't "get it"?
Jesus is a human, not a deity. It is not polytheism. Their is only One creator. The Holy Spirit is not a god nor an entity. Jesus is not a god nor an entity. There is only one god/entity and that is the Father.
So, it is not polytheism.
Where in scripture does scripture actually call Jesus god?
Not One with god (like one in blood with my mother), not Union (like a marriage between two souls), not a representative (someone who talks on behalf of someone), not a prophet (one who acts on behalf of someone), not savior (anyone who saves another),
but where does it say Jesus is god?
Where does it say he is all knowing?
Where does it say he is all powerful?
Jesus did miracles then he says, "with faith (not as god) you can do the same works as I". If Jesus were god, he would not refer to what is behind his miracles as works of faith from the father. He would say he is the father and as the father, he performs miracles.
He never says that.
I still don't see how a Christian can overlook that. I mean, it doesn't change anything. Jesus still saves them just as his father wants him to. Jesus still goes into their heart because, like all of us, he is spirit and, as any christian, has the divinity of his father.
Sighs
Jesus has the same divinity as his father. He is not his father. I have the same blood as my mother. I am not my mother.
Jesus sharing in god's divinity doesn't make him god
My sharing my mother's (and father's) blood doesn't make me my parents.
Since Jesus shares in his father's divinity (hence being his son), he can still save Christians from their sins.
How does Christianity work?
Same as it usually does. Saying it doesn't, is calling god a lier. It's just a change of perspective. Instead of worshiping Jesus as god, a Christian (in my opinion) should be worshiping god through Jesus. "I am the Way" Way-path, intermediary "no one get's to the father expect through me".
JW, Muslim, Jews, (I don't know abuto LDS), among others, and other believers in the god of Abraham get how a human can be divine (say a prophet) without being the creator himself. JW are Christians.
Why does mainstream Christianity don't "get it"?
Jesus is a human, not a deity. It is not polytheism. Their is only One creator. The Holy Spirit is not a god nor an entity. Jesus is not a god nor an entity. There is only one god/entity and that is the Father.
So, it is not polytheism.
Where in scripture does scripture actually call Jesus god?
Not One with god (like one in blood with my mother), not Union (like a marriage between two souls), not a representative (someone who talks on behalf of someone), not a prophet (one who acts on behalf of someone), not savior (anyone who saves another),
but where does it say Jesus is god?
Where does it say he is all knowing?
Where does it say he is all powerful?
Jesus did miracles then he says, "with faith (not as god) you can do the same works as I". If Jesus were god, he would not refer to what is behind his miracles as works of faith from the father. He would say he is the father and as the father, he performs miracles.
He never says that.
I still don't see how a Christian can overlook that. I mean, it doesn't change anything. Jesus still saves them just as his father wants him to. Jesus still goes into their heart because, like all of us, he is spirit and, as any christian, has the divinity of his father.
SighsUnveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I know they believe in the trinity. My point is Jesus is not god.
You say he is the son. I say he is the son.
Then you say he is not the father. I say he is not the father.
Then I asked you to define god. You defined god.
Then I said Jesus is not all knowing and not all powerful. As a result,
regardless if Jesus is the son or incarnate, because he is not all knowing and all powerful, how does it make him god?
You kind of going over my points. I know what you believe. I need you to explain my points.
Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Isaiah is a prophetic poet, everything has to be taken into context; Isaiah 1:1 is explaining the time period he came.
The word is from the root of salvation, might say victory in Strongs; yet it isn't ever used in translation as it doesn't fit.
If we look at the Orthodox Jewish Bible, it translates the word the same in old and new testament, so we can see the interlinking metaphors.
The people howling is an end times prophecy in Isaiah 65:14 as well...
And since Isaiah 52:1 is saying no longer shall any unclean thing come into Jerusalem, clearly that could be Messianic age prophecy (which is still unfolding).
Doesn't have anything saying about power, muscle, etc.
If you stop calling him jesus, and recognize his name was Yeshua, we find numerous references.
Sorry, pure baloney.
No kidding Isaiah has to be taken in context, - and it tells us the context, and it has absolutely NOTHING to do with a future Jesus.
According to the NT his name was Ἰησοῦς - Iesous. Add a guttural J from the Germans and you have Jesus J-iesous.
A Strong-Arm "salvation" by YHVH, is the same meaning as a victory.
And baloney to not having the other meanings.
Psa 18:49 Therefore will I give thanks unto thee, YHVH, among the heathen, and sing praises unto thy name.
Psa 18:50 Great deliverance/victory giveth he to his king; and sheweth mercy to his anointed, to David, and to his seed for evermore.
Psa 44:3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.
Psa 44:4 Thou art my King, O God: command deliverances/victories for Jacob.
Ask a Jew what YHVH baring his arm means! LOOK at the context.
Note that Psa 44:3 shows that the bared ARM of YHVH means power.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
He is only a son of YHVH in the same sense that all Jews are. They are called such in the Bible.
HE did NOT say he was God.
HE did NOT say he was part of a trinity.
Pretty important things to leave out of his teachings, - if they were true, - don't you think?
He only claimed to be the Jewish Messiah, - whom is a special human from the Line of David.
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Isaiah is a prophetic poet, everything has to be taken into context; Isaiah 1:1 is explaining the time period he came.
...
The people howling is an end times prophecy in Isaiah 65:14 as well...
And since Isaiah 52:1 is saying no longer shall any unclean thing come into Jerusalem, clearly that could be Messianic age prophecy (which is still unfolding).
...
If you stop calling him jesus, and recognize his name was Yeshua, we find numerous references.
ISAIAH Jesus Prophecies DEBUNKED
We will let them speak for themselves.
Video -
Video - http://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge...-messiah/why-jesus-is-not-the-jewish-messiah/
http://jewsforjudaism.org/?s=Messiah
http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm
http://jewsforjudaism.ca/our-videos/
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Ingledsva
HEATHEN ALASKAN
Actually the Bible mentions many Sons of YHVH, including the whole Jewish people.
And none of them are Gods. Not even trinity Gods.
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syo
Well-Known Member
Son knows the Father, so he is all knowing.
Son is all powerful, his powers are given to him by the Father.
syo
Well-Known Member
What pray are you refering to?
He is perfect God AND perfect human. His human side got weak as an ordinary human would do.
Because the Son's power came from the Father.
Because people would ignore the Father and start worship the Son.
Are you kidding? What do you expect? That Jesus would say to people "I'm part of the Trinity, believe me?"?
Jesus is God. The Trinity "idea" is true.
syo
Well-Known Member
Do the Jews resurrect from the dead?
I answered above post.
I don't know the role of the Jewish Messiah.
His name was Yeshua, or Yehoshua.
This is the problem using Strongs, we miss out on the grammar; the word used is Yeshuat.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
Son knows the father and he is not all knowing (a lot of scripture prooves this. Cant bypass it by context) therefore he is not god
Son has (given) powers From his father not because he Is the father himself.
The To Be verb and prepositions are important.
Regardless of what Othorodox teaches and what you tell me it teaches it doesnt erase the fact Jesus isnt and never claimed to be his father.
Always his son
Always in "union" With his father
Always the higher prophet Of his father
Always the Son of his father
Always a disciple of his father
Always an incarnate Of his father
Always a mirror/image of his father
Always a representative of his father
Because of these things I listed, Jesus is not god.
That and without you having a conversation with me, what youbsay without commentary is sounds repeditive. I know what you are saying. Explain how Jesus is god from your view since scripture says otherwise. Why would you believe what scripture says in context (something you may assume it says by connecting somewhat related dots) when Jesus tells you point blank he is not god. Everything he has comes From god.
That and there is only three people in the trinity not father, son, holy spirit, and god.
If you are not claiming Jesus is the father, than it sounds like you are claiming him as "another" god.
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Desert Snake
Veteran Member
First you state this.
Then, this. As Judaism, Islam, and whatever else, don't believe in Jesus, or, do not believe the Scripture thusly, as in islam, then how are they worshipping G-d ''through'' Jesus? It's a complete contradiction.
syo
Well-Known Member
Father gave birth to Son to reveal his will. Son obeys the Father, without the Father there is no Son, Son doesn't have a will on his own. Son is not the Father.
Unveiled Artist
Veteran Member
I never said they worshiped god through jesus. I said they understand how a human can be divine (say a prophet) without being thr creator himself.
I dont see how my two comments relate.
If jesus can only do what god wants him to do as god then thats telling him he cant make a human sinless. Its calling god a lier.
Completely different comment that Muslim, Jew, and JW understand the difference between a prophets divinity and that of the creator.
Where is the contradiction?