Does it really matter what people believe?

[Trailblazer]

So which part of hell are you in?

I did not know there were parts of hell....

Today I am just in hell and obviously God could not care less.
If God cared, as Christians believe He does, there would not be this much suffering in the world.
You just cannot make your beliefs work and maintain logic.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm not religious so perhaps it is not very appropriate for me to partake in this debate.

Yes, it is appropriate and thanks for sharing your views.

I am not very religious either even though I belong to a religion.

 

[Audie]

Why would Jesus agree with fictitious stories that were written about Him?

I meant things like genesis

 

[Trailblazer]

I meant things like genesis

Genesis was not about Jesus.

 

[nPeace]

I did not know there were parts of hell....

Today I am just in hell and obviously God could not care less.
If God cared, as Christians believe He does, there would not be this much suffering in the world.
You just cannot make your beliefs work and maintain logic.

Some people think they have all the logic in the world. Sadly, they are mistaken.
... and this was written nearly 2000 years ago...
(1 Corinthians 1:18-25) 18 For the speech about the torture stake is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved, it is God’s power. 19 For it is written: “I will make the wisdom of the wise men perish, and the intelligence of the intellectuals I will reject.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this system of things? Has not God made the wisdom of the world foolish? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not get to know God through its wisdom, God was pleased through the foolishness of what is preached to save those believing. 22 For the Jews ask for signs and the Greeks look for wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ executed on the stake, to the Jews a cause for stumbling but to the nations foolishness. 24 However, to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ is the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because a foolish thing of God is wiser than men, and a weak thing of God is stronger than men.

(1 Corinthians 2:14) But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually.
(1 Corinthians 3:19) For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God, for it is written: “He catches the wise in their own cunning.”

These words are quite accurate, and I think, worthy of consideration.

 

[Trailblazer]

These words are quite accurate, and I think, worthy of consideration.

Thanks, but the words in the Bible are not a cure-all for everyone.

 

[Audie]

Genesis was not about Jesus.

Like I didn't know that!

But do you say he upheld it as true?

 

[Trailblazer]

Like I didn't know that!

But do you say he upheld it as true?

No, if you are referring to the 'story' of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, I do you believe Jesus upheld it as true.

 

[thomas t]

I don't think that Bible interpretation is only a matter of personal experience. I stay with my opinion: once you can't prove your point using scripture, it stays speculation, no matter what your experience actually is or was.
Bible never says that it is experience that determines how good an interpretation of scripture really is. Neither does it say that without experience every interpretation of scripture is mere speculation.
So experience being the basis of good Bible exegesis also is your presumption, I think.

I also don't think that someone who has had a good childhood with loving parents or someone who has experienced love from others has a better way of seeing scripture than the one who did not. God does not show favoritism; see Romans 2:11, so he won't favor the ones having had a good childhood.... giving them a better understanding for his Bible.

I stay with my opinion your verses could not show God's puported "unconditional love".
You could not show using scripture that the people in Mark 12:9 did effectively not know that they killed the son of God. So I presented scripture as to show that there were people around who in fact knew whom they were killing. No speculation. Scripture.

Also, it was Bible that shows that the moment he said "they know not what they do"... he was indeed at the cross suffering torture. When people suffer torture they're just not in the mood to elaborate an exact stance for 5 minutes, I think. It is allowed to think while reading scripture. I gave a scriptural reason as opposed to speculation.

But here's the thing. The minute you say God is conditional love, you make it about works. It's that simple. If you don't do something right, God does not love you. If you do something right God loves you. That's a salvation of works. You're promoting that by saying God love is conditional. I don't think you can reconcile that with saying salvation is by Grace. [...] So then you "earn" being included. Exactly what you just said. Thomas, you are preaching a salvation of works here. That is what is not Biblical.

no. Who said anything about works. Taking a sandwich that is offered to you, does not mean you "earn" it, as I see it. It's still a gift. You can't credit the one who takes the sandwich for having done a work or even for meriting the sandwich. It was a gift.
The sandwich in my comparison is forgiveness offered by Jesus's atonement... or you could say it's grace. When I say you need to accept it, I'm not refuting the concept of grace, of course.

Even if some people "earn" getting thrown out from the party.... that does not mean that the ones who do not, deserve their sandwich. The sandwich still is a gift, even for those who did not deserve getting thrown out.

So, do you believe if you do something bad, you get thrown out?

Actually, Bible states this:
And he said to him, ‘Friend, how did you get in here without a wedding garment?’ And he was speechless. 13 Then the king said to the attendants, ‘Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.’ 14 For many are called, but few are chosen.”
Mt 22:12-14

Facing ourselves and surrendering to God's love does not necesssarily mean someone is repentant.
---
I maintain that I base my opinions on what I find in the Bible. I do not base an argument solely on "experience".
Even if Bible interpretation changes over time... Christianity cannot change the rules solely on grounds of someone having had an experience or claiming it.
I reject the idea that Christianity should change just because someone claims experience.

No, your verses did not show that God's forgiveness is unconditional. Neither the Prodigal Son nor "Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened. [...]" nor "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do" as put in its right context.... mirrors unconditional forgiveness, as shown in my previous responses.
These were the only 3 scripture verses you cited to bolster your stance of unconditional forgiveness.

I do not impose anything on God.
No confusion about forgiveness here.
I'm not comparable to one of these folks Jesus speaks to in your cartoon.

Please don't take this debate to the personal level.

I hope that I didn't repeat myself here, except when explicitely introduced a repetition of what I've just said, by using "I maintain" or " I stay with my opinion" or something like that...

 

[thomas t]

If God cared, as Christians believe He does, there would not be this much suffering in the world.

some humans choose to inflict harm on others. That's not God's fault.
Other people just don't bother when they witness this and let go. Maybe God is waiting for them to intervene?

 

[Audie]

No, if you are referring to the 'story' of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, I do you believe Jesus upheld it as true.

And what does that tell you about the man?

Why put "story" in quotation marks, btw?

 

[Windwalker]

I don't think that Bible interpretation is only a matter of personal experience. I stay with my opinion:

This is very naive. Of course past experience affects how we perceive and respond to the world, every day, in every way. To imagine you are just a dispassionate calculating computer that can avoid these human realities of experience and perception, is more than just naive, it's form a denialism to somehow support your argument, claiming you don't, when in fact all of us do. It is how humans relate themselves to the world, through past experiences.

Past experiences shape what we see more than what we are looking at now

A rope coiled on dusty trail may trigger a frightened jump by hiker who recently stepped on a snake. Now a new study better explains how a one-time visual experience can shape perceptions afterward.

Led by neuroscientists from NYU School of Medicine and published online July 31 in eLife, the study argues that humans recognize what they are looking at by combining current sensory stimuli with comparisons to images stored in memory.

"Our findings provide important new details about how experience alters the content-specific activity in brain regions not previously linked to the representation of images by nerve cell networks," says senior study author Biyu He, PhD, assistant professor in the departments of Neurology, Radiology, and Neuroscience and Physiology.

"The work also supports the theory that what we recognize is influenced more by past experiences than by newly arriving sensory input from the eyes," says He, part of the Neuroscience Institute at NYU Langone Health.​

You cannot just claim you are seeing the world outside your own personal experiences. Nobody alive does that. It's is simply not how our brains are wired.

Please don't take this debate to the personal level.

I'm not trying to take this to the personal level. I asked if you have ever experienced unconditional love from another human, because if your experience answers yes, that will affect how you read scripture about the nature of God. If you answer no to that question, that too will affect how you interpret what you see in scripture about the nature of God.

In my years of online discussions about this, I have found that those who have never experienced unconditional love, cannot relate to what that looks like when thinking about God, or even in human relationships, because they have no experience of what that is. Those that do, can. I grew up in a home where unconditional love was my lived reality.

You don't have to answer that to me if that's too personal for you, but you should consider what I said. I think you are not allowing God to be more than your own perceptions of what love is, based upon the context of experience.

 

[Trailblazer]

some humans choose to inflict harm on others. That's not God's fault.
Other people just don't bother when they witness this and let go. Maybe God is waiting for them to intervene?

You are absolutely correct. I figured that out recently.

Do you know how they inflict harm on others? They do so by beating them over the head with scriptures that is supposed to be the Word of God, when in reality it is just some words in a book inspired by God. They also hurt people by their misinterpretation of what they consider religious texts, and then they say **** like like "God is sending you tests for your own benefit", or "suffering is to make us stronger".... as if they have a clue what God is "doing" or what makes anyone stronger. I recently divested myself of such gobbledygook and as such I no longer blame the unknowable God for what people "believe" He is doing.

 

[Trailblazer]

And what does that tell you about the man?

Why put "story" in quotation marks, btw?

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to say:
No, if you are referring to the 'story' of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, I do not believe Jesus upheld it as true.

What that tells me about Jesus is that He knew the story was fictional.
The reason I put it in quotes is because I believe it is fictional.

Do you believe it was a true story?

 

[Audie]

Sorry, that was a typo. I meant to say:
No, if you are referring to the 'story' of Adam and Eve and the Garden of Eden, I do not believe Jesus upheld it as true.

What that tells me about Jesus is that He knew the story was fictional.
The reason I put it in quotes is because I believe it is fictional.

Do you believe it was a true story?

Not for a second.

 

[Trailblazer]

Not for a second.

Good.

 

[Audie]

Good.

We who are not religious are puzzled by the process of choosing what to believe and then believing it.

 

[thomas t]

Of course past experience affects how we perceive and respond to the world, every day, in every way.

I do not and did not deny this. (I denied that this is the only factor determining what we get from scripture.)
I did not " just claim" I am seeing the world outside my own personal experiences.

I merely refuted your claim that those who made good experiences in their lives had a better knowledge about scripture than those who don't.
Bible does not say that even those who enjoyed a very good upbringing with loving parents have an advantage over those who didn't when it comes to Bible understanding.
There is no reason to believe that the former are better off when it comes to interpreting scripture.

I asked if you have ever experienced unconditional love from another human,

an answer would take it to the personal level. This thread is not about Thomas T as you may have noticed

I think I don't force limits on God not to be more than my own perceptions of what love is.

 

[thomas t]

while I do think the Bible is God's words indeed, I agree: it's always wrong to use it as a bat.
Foremost this....

then they say **** like like "God is sending you tests for your own benefit", or "suffering is to make us stronger"

... is horrible, I noticed that, too.
Some people use it as a finisher for debate, it seems to me.

 

[Trailblazer]

We who are not religious are puzzled by the process of choosing what to believe and then believing it.

Some of us who are religious are also puzzled by the process of choosing what to believe and then believing it.