Does One Person's Gain Come at Another's Expense?

[Riverwolf]

100 years from now, there will not even be a middle class any more.

Just like in Rome.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Just like in Rome.

Or if we don't limit ourselves and our thinking, robots will do everything and we all have anything we want with little effort on our part. things will be so plentiful and cheap nothing will be an issue any more.

The thing is, I believe we are on the cusp of some new technologies that will make everyone's lives better.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I don't see were my arguement is limited to one country.

Some folks need to be spoon fed while others are self starters. There will always be exceptions of course but the fact still remains that the rich will become even richer at an even faster pace in the future.

100 years from now, there will not even be a middle class any more.

I'm kinda confused at to whether you're applauding hard work, which I would concur with, or offering wealth as a measure of a person's effort, which it's simply not.

Social and economic mobility are key concepts in a healthy society. Whatever help we give should be aimed around giving people a chance to make something of themselves via their own hardwork.

For example, anything that can be done to lower the cost of tertiary education, and make it purely about academic achievement, hard work, and sustained effort would seem to me to be a positive all around. Best and hardest working candidates are accepted, regardless of their relative wealth.

 

[Reverend Rick]

I'm kinda confused at to whether you're applauding hard work, which I would concur with, or offering wealth as a measure of a person's effort, which it's simply not.

Social and economic mobility are key concepts in a healthy society. Whatever help we give should be aimed around giving people a chance to make something of themselves via their own hardwork.

For example, anything that can be done to lower the cost of tertiary education, and make it purely about academic achievement, hard work, and sustained effort would seem to me to be a positive all around. Best and hardest working candidates are accepted, regardless of their relative wealth.

Honestly, I don't understand why college is even necessary except for making people study for grades.

Like was said before, Bill Gates did not need a degree to be sucessful.

Think about it, you can learn just about anything on the internet. You do have to push yourself however. You only need a degree to impress someone you want to work for.

Plenty of folks are self taught and if you really think about it, schools are pretty much unnecessary.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Honestly, I don't understand why college is even necessary except for making people study for grades.

Like was said before, Bill Gates did not need a degree to be sucessful.

Think about it, you can learn just about anything on the internet. You do have to push yourself however. You only need a degree to impress someone you want to work for.

Plenty of folks are self taught and if you really think about it, schools are pretty much unnecessary.

Meh...I've got mixed thoughts on that. On the one hand, professionally I'm a teacher. Good teaching, and education, in my opinion, are of absolute importance. Of course, a lot of teaching and education is time filling crap, allowing you to step away from the course with a piece of paper allowing access to the industry. And at that point you start your real learning. Also, I no longer teach, and instead run my own company in ERP consulting, in which I have no formal qualifications at all.

But pushing my mixed feelings aside for a second, the piece of paper at the end of a course is actually pretty important in a whole range of industries. Whether we are over-valuing it is kinda a separate discussion. Whilst it's important, we should be trying to make sure it's a reward for hard work and sustained effort, as well as talent. IN Australia, there are a certain percentage of places reserved for full-fee paying students. IN terms of social and economic mobility, that is definitely not good.

But it happens, because from a micro-economic position (ie. the tertiary institution) it makes sense. Which begs the question if 25% full fee paying is better than 0% for the institution, when will they move to 50%, and what is the impact?

But in the end, this is just one example.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I never said any policies do at the present time.

Let me ask you this, if more and more rich folks have private jets, should everyone else get one too?

Irrelevant. But if you would like to try and tie this back into something I'll answer. "No".

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Jesus Wolf, the guy who was the brains for Bill Gates worked for him. He got wages for his efforts and de facto became Bill's property.

Do you really not follow what I am saying? The problem is, people are programed from an early age to work for someone else, which is fine if you want to limit your income.

After they get off work, they do little to better themselves. They are programmed to work for someone else and never do much for themselves mostly because they think they only should work when they are on the clock.

This is a huge problem in education. We teach our kids in public schools how to get a job and work for someone else. We don't teach them to own their own buisness, start a buisness or survive for themselves.

Good private schools do. That should tell people something.

 

[LuisDantas]

Or if we don't limit ourselves and our thinking, robots will do everything and we all have anything we want with little effort on our part. things will be so plentiful and cheap nothing will be an issue any more.

Not a real possibility. Population keeps growing and consumption "per capita" grows even more.

The thing is, I believe we are on the cusp of some new technologies that will make everyone's lives better.

Technologies must be sustained. Paid for. Understood to some level by those who use them and taken responsibility of. Otherwise they bring as many new problems as they solve.

 

[LuisDantas]

Many people are driven to be extremely successful. Should they be held back to make others feel better about their lot in life?

No, not for that reason.

 

[LuisDantas]

Myself, I do not look at resources as limited. If you run low on something you just find or create more.

Earth is still limited, and population just keep growing and demanding more. I just have no idea of how you can think that way.

 

[LuisDantas]

The problem is, when you work for someone else, you work for wages and limit your income. What is even worse, you give someone else your time you could be using to better yourself.

You may see that as a problem, but it comes from undeniable realities (we live in several nets of mutual dependency and responsibility and our personal autonomy is basically a motivating delusion).

A better case can be made (and IMO must be made) that the delusion of the self-made man is a far bigger problem.

 

[LuisDantas]

The problem is, people are programed from an early age to work for someone else, which is fine if you want to limit your income.

Soon enough limiting one's income will become a duty. It must, if we want to have something resembling a civilization with four billion people and counting living on the same planet.

After they get off work, they do little to better themselves. They are programmed to work for someone else and never do much for themselves mostly because they think they only should work when they are on the clock.

Sounds like something Ayn Rand would say. I don't think it has much of a connection to reality, personally.

 

[LuisDantas]

Been there done that. I had to work my wage slave job AND work for my company when i was a start up

And you extrapolate from that to conclude that it is a viable choice for everyone? Is that it?

 

[LuisDantas]

Circular reasoning. To be successful many times you have to think outside the box. I'm sure many people thought we would still be using candles before the light bulb. Now with LED lights we use a fraction to produce light.

Energy will be the same way and someone will become rich figuring it all out.

For a while. Until it collapses, which it will - and it will be painful too.

As I remember it you made a point of insisting yourself that we (you Americans, I assume) need cheap energy (specifically gasoline) not long ago, supposedly so that some sort of growing can be made possible.

However, personal growth is a testament to the generosity (or perhaps lack of common sense) of the greater community. And in the financial sense, that is truer than ever. Admiring someone's wealth is admiring the willingness of others to donate some of their inherent rights and needs to that person.

Aim for that too much, and things will become real ugly and sick.

 

[LuisDantas]

Honestly, I don't understand why college is even necessary except for making people study for grades.

Like was said before, Bill Gates did not need a degree to be sucessful.

He has been on record stating that he doesn't believe it would be possible now.

Think about it, you can learn just about anything on the internet. You do have to push yourself however. You only need a degree to impress someone you want to work for.

Plenty of folks are self taught and if you really think about it, schools are pretty much unnecessary.

Not if you want to have an actual civilized culture as opposed to a festival of decadence and destruction.

 

[Reverend Rick]

Earth is still limited, and population just keep growing and demanding more. I just have no idea of how you can think that way.

What if the population was limited some way? If not, we all will starve eventually or ay least some of us will.

How can I think the way I do? Many of us are driven, we can't help it. Even in retirement, I am building an off grid home and designing many parts of it myself. No matter how expensive things get in the future, I will be providing my own with very little expense. you should see my year round hydroponic tomatoes.

 

[Riverwolf]

Or if we don't limit ourselves and our thinking, robots will do everything and we all have anything we want with little effort on our part. things will be so plentiful and cheap nothing will be an issue any more.

Again, just like Rome. (Robots = Slaves.)

The thing is, I believe we are on the cusp of some new technologies that will make everyone's lives better.

Just like 100 years ago?

Sorry, but far as I can tell, we're already there. With new technology, there will still be bad people, there will still be cynics, there will still be rebels. All tools can be used as weapons.

When augmentation becomes affordable, you can bet there's going to be strong resistance groups.

 

[Riverwolf]

What if the population was limited some way? If not, we all will starve eventually or ay least some of us will.

How can I think the way I do? Many of us are driven, we can't help it. Even in retirement, I am building an off grid home and designing many parts of it myself. No matter how expensive things get in the future, I will be providing my own with very little expense. you should see my year round hydroponic tomatoes.

That's great. I wish you success. I might do something similar when I retire.

But don't use yourself and your disposition as a microcosm for all humanity.

I'm most suited to the indie game development, mostly because of my condition which makes pretty much any interaction with people hard work, even if it's supposed to be casual. I'm not a natural programmer, so I have to slog through the learning process of that. I do it because the AAA industry just sounds awful to work in. But I would never ask for it to go away; it's from people working for other people that we have masterpieces like Silent Hill 2, the Mass Effect trilogy, Morrowind, Metroid Prime, etc. I wouldn't even have the indie scene available if it weren't for them, and it's impossible for indie devs to make games on that scale, anyway.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Honestly, I don't understand why college is even necessary except for making people study for grades.

Like was said before, Bill Gates did not need a degree to be sucessful.

Think about it, you can learn just about anything on the internet. You do have to push yourself however. You only need a degree to impress someone you want to work for.

Plenty of folks are self taught and if you really think about it, schools are pretty much unnecessary.

Not everyone is a self-starter and capable of self-teaching. Many people need a clear, pre-defined path layed out for them in order to know what to do.

 

[Mr Spinkles]

Many people play the blame game. They think they are poor because of the damn rich folks.

Is this really true?

I don't think so, no.

Many people are driven to be extremely successful. Should they be held back to make others feel better about their lot in life?

Absolutely not.