Does race exist?

[Saint Frankenstein]

No - Han Chinese as a race apart from, say, Turkic, Korean, or Okinawan.


No, I'm saying that race - and particularly racial divisions - are purely cultural constructs. I'm saying that you have no more justification to say that a Han and a Uighur are the same race than someone else has to say that they're different. The lines between races - and therefore the concept of race itself - is arbitrary.


They exist, but only as cultural constructs... like race.


When you say "race exists", precisely what are you saying exists?

Genetic markers are not cultural constructs.

 

[Revoltingest]

No - Han Chinese as a race apart from, say, Turkic, Korean, or Okinawan.
No, I'm saying that race - and particularly racial divisions - are purely cultural constructs. I'm saying that you have no more justification to say that a Han and a Uighur are the same race than someone else has to say that they're different. The lines between races - and therefore the concept of race itself - is arbitrary.

Do you not recognize any physical differences between the races you say don't exist?

When you say "race exists", precisely what are you saying exists?

Discernible physical differences which fit traits associated with a race.
Example:
You can generally tell which are black folk by skin color & facial features.
These are things which objectively exist, & match up with descriptions defining the terms.

Would you argue with Obama when he claims to be black?
How about his Mrs when she (recently) complained about the problems of a black 1st Lady?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Something like ethnic group=Cherokee; micro-race = Native North American; macro-race = Asian

What makes "Cherokee" an ethnic group and not a race?

No categorization is perfect but it helps us understand the complex spectrum better.

How does glossing over the variation among, say, Asian people help us understand the complex spectrum of humanity better?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Genetic markers are not cultural constructs.

Please tell me which genetic markers are common to, say, the "Asian" race, to use one example that's been mentioned.

 

[Wirey]

You're right, there is no race. So, by deduction, police never engage in racial profiling because it's not possible.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do you not recognize any physical differences between the races you say don't exist?

I recognize differences (and similarities) between individuals, between families, between nationalities and between "races".

Discernible physical differences which fit traits associated with a race.
Example:
You can generally tell which are black folk by skin color & facial features.
These are things which objectively exist, & match up with descriptions defining the terms.

Would you argue with Obama when he claims to be black?
How about his Mrs when she (recently) complained about the problems of a black 1st Lady?

There's more variation within the black "race" than there is difference between black and other "races".

Discrimination is real, but the decision to base discrimination on skin colour is arbitrary.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Please tell me which genetic markers are common to, say, the "Asian" race, to use one example that's been mentioned.

You mean something like this?
Genetic studies of human diversity in East Asia | Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences

 

[George-ananda]

What makes "Cherokee" an ethnic group and not a race?

It's just a common term that has been created to help better study the details of the continuous spectrum of humanity.

How does glossing over the variation among, say, Asian people help us understand the complex spectrum of humanity better?

We better understand the process of the peopling of the earth and the degrees of separation in the continuous spectrum. The amount of genetic separation is less among ethnic groups in the same macro-race than between ethnic groups of different macro-races. This helps us understand the spectrum of humanity better.

 

[Revoltingest]

No, that is what makes the common perceptions either false, or negligible in application. What is ''race'', there, in that context, is only probability. It isn't ''race'', it is regional variation, and population similarities. this is not ''race''; it is the consequential similarity of a geographical human population. We know this, because the usual 'hallmarks'', of what is considered 'race', do not maintain consistency when these populations mix. This means that, aside from ''science'', in many cases, you are not going to know what ''race'' someone is, in any formal manner. If you scientifically take everything into consideration, you can place their physical stats in a geographical area, and ironically, this is exactly why ''race'' does not exist.

To point out that distinctions disappear when different races mix doesn't negate the existence of race.
Colors exist, but can be mixed to the point of losing distinction too.
Yet we don't say color doesn't exist.....except for the fringiest SJWs.

 

[Revoltingest]

I recognize differences (and similarities) between individuals, between families, between nationalities and between "races".
There's more variation within the black "race" than there is difference between black and other "races".
Discrimination is real, but the decision to base discrimination on skin colour is arbitrary.

Arbitrariness about race based treatment actually confirms its existence.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

You mean something like this?
Genetic studies of human diversity in East Asia | Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society B: Biological Sciences

From the abstract:

The hallmark of these efforts is the discovery and confirmation of consistent distinction between northern and southern East Asian populations at genetic markers across the genome.

So... since your source argues that northern and southern East Asian populations are genetically distinct (and, from what I gather from a skimming of the paper, are likely descended from separate groups that left Africa at different times), why are you lumping them all into one "race"?

 

[Revoltingest]

@Revoltingest
If you met me, ''racially' you might think I am 'white', therefore European, etc. \The fact is, ''scientifically'', I am not European, at all./not even in the ballpark, in population stats./ie measurements, and measurement combination// I'm not even on the continent, in a literal, real, sense, of what you would consider ''race''. So, if you cannot tell that from meeting me, you really think that ''race'' exists?

Even though I'd be wrong about assessing race at times, that doesn't negate its existence.
Think of race as analogous to electron shells.
They're just probability spaces without rigid boundaries.
Race behaves similarly, ie, a multidimensional characteristic space with fuzzy boundaries enclosing various different races.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

The amount of genetic separation is less among ethnic groups in the same macro-race than between ethnic groups of different macro-races.

Frank's source calls this into question for the Asian "race". From what I've read, it's absolutely false for the African "race".

 

[Desert Snake]

To point out that distinctions disappear when different races mix doesn't negate the existence of race.
Colors exist, but can be mixed to the point of losing distinction too.
Yet we don't say color doesn't exist.....except for the fringiest SJWs.

You're just talking about statistical probabilities. How this in any way ''race'', is beyond me.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

From the abstract:


So... since your source argues that northern and southern East Asian populations are genetically distinct (and, from what I gather from a skimming of the paper, are likely descended from separate groups that left Africa at different times), why are you lumping them all into one "race"?

I didn't say that East Asians are the same race.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Arbitrariness about race based treatment actually confirms its existence.

... as a cultural construct, not as a biolgical one.

 

[Revoltingest]

You're just talking about statistical probabilities. How this in any way ''race'', is beyond me.

Race is analogous.
There are no individual traits associated with a particular race which cannot exist in another race.
It's all about a general fit.
There's a lack of precision, especially around the margins.

 

[Desert Snake]

Even though I'd be wrong about assessing race at times, that doesn't negate its existence.
Think of race as analogous to electron shells.
They're just probability spaces without rigid boundaries.
Race behaves similarly, ie, a multidimensional characteristic space with fuzzy boundaries enclosing various different races.

That's not what most people mean when they say 'race'. Race usually means very general descriptions that are noticeable when meeting people. This is not really what you are describing.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I didn't say that East Asians are the same race.

So you disagree with Revoltingest about what constitutes a race, then?

Interesting. I look forward to the reasoned arguments from both of you supporting your cases.

 

[Revoltingest]

... as a cultural construct, not as a biolgical one.

Do you think these features are just cultural constructs?
- Eye folds
- Dark skin
- Light skin
Culture is about how people react to race.

Perhaps the waters are muddied because now people are even treating religions as races.