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Does 'supernatural' mean 'imaginary'?

Darkstorn

This shows how unique i am.
‘(the) supernatural’ means ‘things that cannot in principle be explained according to the laws of nature.'

Without reading the rest of the thread, here's my view:

The key words in that entire statement are "explained" and "laws of nature."

And seeing as no one said our understanding, and uh... Explanations of the "laws of nature" themselves are 100% complete... The entire definition is a bit odd: It's an absolute statement but there are conditions to it...

Let's try to simplify this a bit:

The nature of the Sun can in principle be explained according to the laws of nature. Now. But that wasn't the case always. Our "laws of nature" themselves were different. The sun's workings were, essentially, supernatural to them ancient goat herders.

So: To me, the word supernatural doesn't have as much to do with "imaginary" as it does with "unexplained."

And no, i don't believe in ghosts, ESP or any other stuff like that. I just believe that the word supernatural doesn't imply imaginary.
 
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blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
The nature of the Sun can in principle be explained according to the laws of nature. Now. But that wasn't the case always.
I agree. As our understanding changes, truth changes too.
To me, the word supernatural doesn't have as much to do with "imaginary" as it does with "unexplained."
I'd say "unexplainable in principle".
And no, i don't believe in ghosts, ESP or any other stuff like that. I just believe that the word supernatural doesn't imply imaginary.
Then you and I will agree that on all the evidence to date gods, ghosts, ghouls, goblins are imaginary and telepathy, telekinesis, clairvoyance, contact with the dead and the rest of the kit are imaginary and sometimes fraudulent.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I note that no one has taken exception to the division of existence into only two categories, real and imaginary.

I've been waiting for someone to protest that there's a third category, 'spiritual'.

Gods, angels, demons, souls, ghosts, don't have to be imaginary just because they don't exist in reality (this argument goes). They have a category, 'spiritual', all of their own. If you're a spirit ─ a denizen of the spiritverse ─ then you can be immaterial and still have objective existence.

I think the correct reply to such a proposition is, "What objective test, then, will tell us whether something is spiritual or imaginary?"

But this is a discussion about the supernatural, and someone may have an answer to that, so I put it on the table.

Anyone?
 
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Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
tell that to the IPCC!

Nobody on either side scientifically, believes our tiny contribution of CO2 can trap a significant amount of heat. That's just what is strongly insinuated in the IPCC 'summary for policy makers' for journalists, politicians and celebs

You are smarter than that!
So are you saying that human activity has no effect on our global climate, and the the IPCC knows that, but hints otherwise?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
So are you saying that human activity has no effect on our global climate, and the the IPCC knows that, but hints otherwise?

Technically yes, of course everything we do has 'some effect' overwhelmingly positive in the case of CO2 I would argue, but regardless- that's where the 97% consensus figures come from, I would usually be among them when such benign definitions are used.

The fact that even 3 or 4% refuse to concur, I think is because they know fine well that the number will be shown next to a graphic of NY underwater in pop science media


The Hollywood disaster scenarios are pure fiction, and yes many 'expert reviewers' used by the IPCC to pen 'summaries for policy makers' like 'women for climate justice' are perfectly open abut their political stance, that the 'solutions' are things they want to see implemented regardless, and a little 'exaggeration' is perfectly justified to achieve those goals.

the I in IPCC stands for interGOVERNMENTAL, this is a 100% political organization with clearly stated political goals, regardless of 'climate change'.


Or are you saying that promises of vast amounts of wealth and power, being transferred from the private to the public sector at the stroke of a pen, has absolutely no effect on politicians?!
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
Technically yes, of course everything we do has 'some effect' overwhelmingly positive in the case of CO2 I would argue, but regardless- that's where the 97% consensus figures come from, I would usually be among them when such benign definitions are used.

The fact that even 3 or 4% refuse to concur, I think is because they know fine well that the number will be shown next to a graphic of NY underwater in pop science media


The Hollywood disaster scenarios are pure fiction, and yes many 'expert reviewers' used by the IPCC to pen 'summaries for policy makers' like 'women for climate justice' are perfectly open abut their political stance, that the 'solutions' are things they want to see implemented regardless, and a little 'exaggeration' is perfectly justified to achieve those goals.

the I in IPCC stands for interGOVERNMENTAL, this is a 100% political organization with clearly stated political goals, regardless of 'climate change'.


Or are you saying that promises of vast amounts of wealth and power, being transferred from the private to the public sector at the stroke of a pen, has absolutely no effect on politicians?!
New York has been under water. Remember Hurricane Sandy? Same goes for Louisiana with Hurricane Katrina. And Texas, like right now as we speak. We've seen parts of India and Uganda underwater this year as well. So at what point do we start to recognize a pattern?
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
New York has been under water. Remember Hurricane Sandy? Same goes for Louisiana with Hurricane Katrina. And Texas, like right now as we speak. We've seen parts of India and Uganda underwater this year as well. So at what point do we start to recognize a pattern?

I think we are seeing a pattern yes

This was the first hurricane to make landfall in 12 years, the quietest stretch since records began, beating the last one sometime in the 1860s I believe

Similarly: the drop in tornado activity is practical undisputed, if not exactly shouted about by the IPCC!

Tornado activity hits 60-year low :https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2013/05/09/quiet-tornado-season/2148075/
U.S. Tornadoes So Far in 2016 Continue Near 11-Year Low | The ...
US Sees Record-Low Tornadoes and Tornado Deaths - Climate Central
U.S. tornado numbers among lowest in recorded history in 2014 - The ...




 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
I think we are seeing a pattern yes

This was the first hurricane to make landfall in 12 years, the quietest stretch since records began, beating the last one sometime in the 1860s I believe

Similarly: the drop in tornado activity is practical undisputed, if not exactly shouted about by the IPCC!

Tornado activity hits 60-year low :https://www.usatoday.com/story/weather/2013/05/09/quiet-tornado-season/2148075/
U.S. Tornadoes So Far in 2016 Continue Near 11-Year Low | The ...

US Sees Record-Low Tornadoes and Tornado Deaths - Climate Central
U.S. tornado numbers among lowest in recorded history in 2014 - The ...




You skipped right over the point. You claimed that the flooding of cities is some fantasy of pop culture. It isn't. We're seeing it happening GLOBALLY.
 

Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
You skipped right over the point. You claimed that the flooding of cities is some fantasy of pop culture. It isn't. We're seeing it happening GLOBALLY.

did I?

heavy rain storms, just like tornados and hurricanes are natural events, with natural scientific explanations that have been going on for a long time, they are not nature being angry at people- and giving money to politicians certainly wont stop them, that has been going on for as long as there has been politicians also!


So cities being occasionally flooded is a result of cities being built, (at a very fast pace) changes in land use, drainage, and of course a sea level which has been rising since the last glacial maximum about 19000 years ago- (when cavemen must have started driving SUVs apparently!)
 

Fool

ALL in all
Premium Member
supernatural is what we consider an idea, an abstract, something we can't observe outwardly because of the inability to control and measure it. we make a best guess at what it might be and until it can be observed outwardly it remains outside our nature. so in our limited reality it is imaginary and becomes realized after being observed within our nature; which expands/evolves our nature.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
As I said to you back in #39,

we observe consistencies of behavior in aspects of the material universe and by observation we express those consistencies as well-founded formulae of general application, called 'laws'. [...]​

As for the particular instances [in this case those relevant to biochemistry], I leave you to list them for yourself.

You attribute knowledge to a law of nature? In what sense do you say gravity knows that things fall downwards?
Obviously I did not "attribute knowledge to a law of nature".

I asked you, "What law of nature explains the ability of humans to, first, say that they will pay their landlord a certain amount of money by a certain date of each month for the next year, then actually do exact what they said they would do?"

It is you whose metaphysics, unconnected to any fact, implies that some unnamed law of nature accounts for the commonplace ability to choose what acts one will perform or not perform, including those commonplace acts that we promise to perform far into the future.

Why don't you begin with facts rather than with your beliefs, then make deductions from the facts? Beginning with beliefs rather than facts is precisely how people conclude that the earth is 6000 years old. You demonstrate exactly the same method.

Have you done any reading on "laws of nature"? There are a lot of scholarly works on the topic. Some theses distinguish between "laws of nature" and "laws of science" (E=mc^2 would be a law of science). Among the things you won't find in the scholarly literature is the claim that some "law of nature" accounts for our ability to choose between available options, or accounts for the existence of consciousness. I am unaware that any philosopher or scientist has posited the infinite regress that you have suggested, where there are infinite other laws of nature needed to account for the known laws of nature.

All of them are about how energy is transferred, or held in statis, in particular circumstances. Those transfers of energy are from regions of higher energy to regions of lower energy (except particular cases in QM where the transfer of energy is initiated without a causal movement of energy, giving randomness within parameters). One way to think of them is as natural selection of the most efficient energy transfer.)

So in chemistry, for example, free oxygen atoms will in general bond in pairs, because when they interact with each other, that's generally the most efficient resolution of the energy states brought to that interaction. (Not always, of course. Up there in the ozone layer where eg UV is ambient, the most efficient resolution of the energy states involved is often O3 ... and so on.)

And as it is with the formation of O2 molecules, so it is when RNA reproduces DNA and so on.
One example is with the oxygen above. Or take a game of billiards: we have generalized formulae (laws) for the collision of the balls (spheres of equal radius and mass on a horizontal plane), and the transfers of energy and angles of deflection that result, so that ─ and this is how we say the laws apply ─ if we feed accurate data into that formula we'll get accurate results.
It means that energy acts differently under different circumstances: is, in my hypothesis, like Anaximander's apeiron, the universal substance, what matter, and each of the particles and sub-particles of matter, consist of, and what gives rise to the forces (strong weak EM gravity and whatever else may be out there); may be the enabling force of the dimensions (and the energy of the vacuum may suggest this); and so on. Hence all the regularities we observe in nature which we express as 'laws of nature' are, in this hypothesis, properties of energy.
I asked, "And how do these laws of nature exercise their power? How do they cause things to happen? (Where are the laws?)" It seems that you are proposing that energy is causal. Is that what your saying?

Did you read the lecture I linked to by Richard Feynman? We know that energy is a quantity (if it weren't, then Noether's Theorem wouldn't make sense). Are quantities causal? How does a quantity produce effects? As Feynman explains:

There is a fact, or if you wish, a law, governing all natural phenomena that are known to date. There is no known exception to this law—it is exact so far as we know. The law is called the conservation of energy. It states that there is a certain quantity, which we call energy, that does not change in the manifold changes which nature undergoes. That is a most abstract idea, because it is a mathematical principle; it says that there is a numerical quantity which does not change when something happens. It is not a description of a mechanism, or anything concrete; it is just a strange fact that we can calculate some number and when we finish watching nature go through her tricks and calculate the number again, it is the same.​

The Feynman Lectures on Physics Vol. I Ch. 4: Conservation of Energy

Anyway, according to your scenario, not just the existence of the law of conservation of energy would be "supernatural", but the existence of energy would be "supernatural". We know without a doubt that the existence of the energy of the universe is not a product of something happening within the closed system of the universe. The law of conservation of energy tell us this.
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Obviously, according to Blu's definition, in order to know what is "supernatural," one must know what are the laws of nature and what they supposedly explain. Don't you want to know what is supernatural and what is not?
Well, @Evangelicalhumanist, perhaps you don't want to know what is supernatural and what is not. Ignorance is bliss!
 

Evangelicalhumanist

"Truth" isn't a thing...
Premium Member
Well, @Evangelicalhumanist, perhaps you don't want to know what is supernatural and what is not. Ignorance is bliss!
I do not think that is actually knowable, and that's the issue. Let's take an example: let's say we watched the old video of Muslim extremists cutting off the head of Daniel Pearl. If Daniel's head, as the film continued to roll, grew back out of the stump of his neck -- well I would unequivocally believe in the supernatural, and praise it to the ends of the universe, and never deny that I've been unspeakably stupid my whole life long!

By the way, it didn't.

The real question is this -- how would you "know" if something other than some even like that, caught with certainty on tape, was natural or supernatural? What test could you make -- especially since, in calling something "supernatural" you admit that you know of no natural cause (no "science") that could explain it -- to validate that it was indeed supernatural? Maybe it's just something natural, but some aspect of nature that we don't currently understand?

I've been waiting, and watching, my whole life for something could definitively be shown to be supernatural. Not for some ancient event shrouded in the mists of time and the inevitable mythology that entails. Not unverifiable "personal accounts."

I have yet to see a single one. But if you've got something, I'm all ears. Just please don't make it yet another one of those blurry, second-hand, no-independent-witnesses fables that I'm so accustomed to. I've had my fill of those.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Obviously I did not "attribute knowledge to a law of nature".
Indeed you did. You said,
How do these laws of nature know about and choose between the available options?
But never mind.
I asked you, "What law of nature explains the ability of humans to, first, say that they will pay their landlord a certain amount of money by a certain date of each month for the next year, then actually do exact what they said they would do?"
Brain functions operating in accordance with the laws of nature explain those decisions.

What do you suggest instead? Magic?
It is you whose metaphysics, unconnected to any fact, implies that some unnamed law of nature accounts for the commonplace ability to choose what acts one will perform or not perform, including those commonplace acts that we promise to perform far into the future.
'Unconnected with any fact'? Hyperbole will get you nowhere.
Why don't you begin with facts rather than with your beliefs, then make deductions from the facts?
Because the issue in hand is your argument that on my reasoning the laws of nature must have a supernatural origin; and all I need in order to rebut this 'supernatural' conclusion is an unrebutted hypothesis that accounts within nature for the laws of nature.

As I've mentioned before.

And I've presented you with one.
It seems that you are proposing that energy is causal. Is that what your saying?
A cause is the movement of energy from a region of higher energy to a region of lower energy, and an effect is the change that results. The consistencies of behavior which we observe in nature and which we explain by well-formed formulae of general application which we call 'laws of nature' are, in my hypothesis, statements about properties of energy in the particular circumstances of our universe.
There is a fact, or if you wish, a law, governing all natural phenomena that are known to date. There is no known exception to this law—it is exact so far as we know. The law is called the conservation of energy. It states that there is a certain quantity, which we call energy, that does not change in the manifold changes which nature undergoes. That is a most abstract idea, because it is a mathematical principle; it says that there is a numerical quantity which does not change when something happens. It is not a description of a mechanism, or anything concrete; it is just a strange fact that we can calculate some number and when we finish watching nature go through her tricks and calculate the number again, it is the same.​
I see no inconsistency with my hypothesis there.
Anyway, according to your scenario, not just the existence of the law of conservation of energy would be "supernatural", but the existence of energy would be "supernatural".
No, the existence of energy would simply be the fundamental datum, the cosmic equivalent of cogito ergo sum, energy is thus everything is. Nothing supernatural would be involved. It would be the physical medium for all physics. And the laws of nature would follow from the existence of energy.
 
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Mister Silver

Faith's Nightmare
Something I never quite understood in regards to Satan turning against god is that god created all of his angels without free will. How could Satan have rebelled unless he had free will, that which was given by god, meaning that the all-knowing god willfully created a being he knew would turn against him, thus god creating evil.
 

gnostic

The Lost One
Something I never quite understood in regards to Satan turning against god is that god created all of his angels without free will.
According to Judaism, they don't have free will and there were no rebellion in heaven, and Satan was an agent of god, not god's enemy.

Satan's personality and traits only began to change during the Hellenistic period, which NT authors took advantages of.
 

SkepticThinker

Veteran Member
did I?

heavy rain storms, just like tornados and hurricanes are natural events, with natural scientific explanations that have been going on for a long time, they are not nature being angry at people- and giving money to politicians certainly wont stop them, that has been going on for as long as there has been politicians also!


So cities being occasionally flooded is a result of cities being built, (at a very fast pace) changes in land use, drainage, and of course a sea level which has been rising since the last glacial maximum about 19000 years ago- (when cavemen must have started driving SUVs apparently!)

I have not asserted that tornadoes and hurricanes are not natural events, or that their occurrence means that nature is angry at anyone. Those sound like religious arguments to me and I am not religious. Nobody who knows what they're talking about would assert that cavemen were driving SUV's and I have to say that's one of the silliest and lamest arguments I've ever seen on this topic. Do people who assert this silliness honestly think that scientists aren't aware that climate has changed in the past without the input of humans? Like you're the first person who thought of that? Give me a break.

Let's stick to the point please.

Flooded cities are more than some fantasy of pop culture. It is happening on grander and grander scales, all over the world as time goes on, as storms increase in intensity and damages skyrocket. Human activity you mention like building cities, changing land usage and drainage only serves to exacerbate the already existing problem. Over the last 50 years the sea level in Texas has risen by 12.5 inches, and it doesn't help that Houston itself has been sinking for several decades. The sea level in New York has risen by about the same. Jakarta is sinking as sea levels rise. Tens of millions of people have been affected by severe flooding in India, Bangladesh and Nepal. Thousands more have been affected in Hong Kong, Pakistan, Niger, Sierra Leone, Guinea, Yemen, Iran, Italy, Ireland, Germany, and New Zealand due to flash floods, landslides, and monsoons that are increasingly getting worse. Scientists warned us that this kind of stuff would happen. And here you are asserting that it's not happening. What does it take to make you get it?
 

Nous

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I do not think that is actually knowable, and that's the issue. Let's take an example: let's say we watched the old video of Muslim extremists cutting off the head of Daniel Pearl. If Daniel's head, as the film continued to roll, grew back out of the stump of his neck -- well I would unequivocally believe in the supernatural, and praise it to the ends of the universe, and never deny that I've been unspeakably stupid my whole life long!

By the way, it didn't.

The real question is this -- how would you "know" if something other than some even like that, caught with certainty on tape, was natural or supernatural? What test could you make -- especially since, in calling something "supernatural" you admit that you know of no natural cause (no "science") that could explain it -- to validate that it was indeed supernatural? Maybe it's just something natural, but some aspect of nature that we don't currently understand?

I've been waiting, and watching, my whole life for something could definitively be shown to be supernatural. Not for some ancient event shrouded in the mists of time and the inevitable mythology that entails. Not unverifiable "personal accounts."

I have yet to see a single one. But if you've got something, I'm all ears. Just please don't make it yet another one of those blurry, second-hand, no-independent-witnesses fables that I'm so accustomed to. I've had my fill of those.
I wish you had used a less grotesque and horrible example of the inability to regenerate body parts. Some animals do regenerate complex body parts. What are the laws of nature that "explain" that? What are the laws of nature that explain why other animals can't regenerate the same sort of body parts?

Or do you disagree with Blu's interpretation of the definition of "supernatural" where whatever is not explained by a law of nature is supernatural? Your offer of a different "test" for determining whether something is supernatural or not certainly implies that you disagree with Blu's interpretation of the word "supernatural".
 
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