Rakovsky
Active Member
Tanakh's blessed predictions about Messiah, the Messianic era, and the resurrection of the dead are very appealing. In fact, belief in Messiah and the resurrection are two of the thirteen fundamental principles of Judaism laid out by Rabbi Maimonides. Yet does the Tanakh when intentionally describing the facts of geology and cosmology sometimes make mistakes? And if so, does this in turn undermine the reliability of its future predictions? That is, if the writers were severely mistaken in their factual beliefs and understanding of real events that occurred thousands of years before their time, as well as basic reality in their own, then does this make their factual predictions of the future far less reliable?
Let me address first some potential geological & cosmological mistakes.
Portayals of a Flat Earth
Tanakh describes the earth as being in the form of a "circle" ("hug" in Hebrew) rather than a "ball", and it describes its form as like clay under a seal (a seal stamps clay in a flat circle). The earth has "ends", "corners", and "foundations". The earth is "stretched out" (something flat stretches out), it's "stretched out over nothing", and one can "stretch a measuring line across it" (as opposed to "around it"). It can also be seen from a single point in space (like only a flat object can).
Below are some of the many verses that describe the earth this way:
The earth has ends and can be seen from a single point in space:
Job 28:24 (JPT translation) For He looks to the ends of the earth, and He sees under all the heavens.
Like a flat object, the earth's middle is a single point above ground, and the tree standing on that point can be seen from all points on earth, even its "ends":
Daniel 4 (JPT) [The king saw] a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height was tremendous. The tree grew and became strong, and its height reached the sky, and its appearance [was seen] to the end of all the earth.
The earth is like a clay circle stamped under a flat seal, has corners, and can be measured with a line over/across it, as opposed to around it:
Job 38 (JPT):
The plants' creation before the sun's, the heavens' firmness, and the waters above them
In Genesis 1, the earth's plants are created before the sun, which is made on Day Four of Creation. The heavens are "beaten out" like a hard metal sheet, the sun and stars are fastened in them, and above them rests a body of liquid water (AKA the "water canopy"). The earth also sits on top of a mass of underground water. Then, according to Genesis, during the Great Flood, windows in the heavens opened and the waters poured down enough and burst up enough to flood the earth over the tallest mountains. Psalm 148 (JPT) also talks about the waters above the heavens:
In the Great Flood, the water rose over the earth's tallest mountains for over a month, killing all animals and humans except for those whom Noah saved with his ark. The saved were Noah's families and the pairs of every animal kind on earth. After the flood, the animals and humans on board repopulated the earth.
This is hard to square with our knowledge of reality. The Great Flood happened about 1000 years before Moses' time, based on the Tanakh's chronology. We know from archeology that the indigenous Peruvians had a major civilization already 1700 years before Moses' time, and that Mesoamericans had settled their own region for millenia before then. It's hard to think that 1000 years before Moses these major cultures were wiped out and then humans returned there from Noah's descendants and restored the exact same culture with the same human DNA.
Even greater difficulty arises with the animals. Did flightless birds live in New Zealand for centuries before Noah's time, then get saved in Noah's Ark, regain their ability to fly, and then fly back to New Zealand where they lost their ability to fly again? Or maybe they rafted back and forth on driftwood? There are so many problems with taking this story factually that it looks like it is not factually true.
What are some possible responses to these depictions?
One is Inerrancy, whereby all such expressions are either (A) literally true no matter how unrealistic they sound, (B) figurative expressions and manners of speech, or (C) only meant as allegories. In such an explanation, there are no instances when the authors intended something factually true that later turned out to be factually mistaken.
So in order to promote their (A) Literal Factuality, one could point out that some scholars believe that there are masses of water underneath the earth.
Massive Underground 'Ocean' Probably The Source Of Our Surface Seas
Massive Underground 'Ocean' Probably The Source Of Our Surface Seas Kids News Article
In order to interpret (B) the verses as figurative expressions, one can point out that "to the ends of the earth" is an expression used even today in common speech, even though today people no longer believe that the earth is flat. Hence, such expressions could have been used in Tanakh without the writer actually considering the earth to be flat.
And to propose (C) that the stories are only meant allegorically, one could propose that Noah is an allegorical figure, his ark is allegorical, and the flood is allegorical. I am not aware of any place in Tanakh that spells out that "The Story of Noah's Ark and the Great Flood is nonfiction". I suppose that theoretically the stories of Job or Jonah could have been allegorical, just like the Song of Solomon might not have intended to narrate a real event where a doe literally looked through a window for her beloved. And in that case, I suppose that theoretically Noah's story could have been inserted as an allegory in the Tanakh's history of Abraham's ancestors.
Still, none of these answers seems to fully deal with the problem I posed at the message's beginning. The passages are very hard to all read as literally true. The earth isn't literally flat, it's hard to imagine the plants on earth as made before the sun, and it's hard to square Noah's Ark story with geology and biology. Occasionally, figures of speech do turn up in literature, but the expressions of a flat earth are given so frequently and expressions of the earth being a sphere are nonexistent, so it seems likely that sometimes the writer was expressing his understanding of a flat earth when he wrote these expressions.
Finally, the stories of Creation and Noah's Ark are narrated in a straightforward way as part of a chronology that leads to Abraham, Jacob, and Moses, so the plain reading suggests that it is meant as a real history of the Israelite nation's real ancestors.
However, let's say that the many references to a Flat Earth, the Creation story, or Noah's Ark are figures of speech or fictional allegories about the past or about the present reality. This conclusion then raises a question for me whether the appealing blessed promises about the future like Messiah's arrival, his blessed era, and the resurrection are also an array of figurative, metaphorical expressions and allegories. If the writers were factually mistaken or only allegorized the distant past and present reality, could the same easily be true about the blessed eschatological future?
Such an idea however that the Messiah concept or resurrection were only mistakes or only allegorical fictions would contradict Maimonides' principles that are recited in the Yigdal in this form:
Footnote:
The reason I put this thread in the Judaism section is because the Tanakh is a Jewish sacred book. I am not asking the question in the thread rhetorically, nor am I proposing a particular solution. Rather, I prefer the blessed promises to be factually true and would like to see if such issues can be addressed successfully.
Let me address first some potential geological & cosmological mistakes.
Portayals of a Flat Earth
Tanakh describes the earth as being in the form of a "circle" ("hug" in Hebrew) rather than a "ball", and it describes its form as like clay under a seal (a seal stamps clay in a flat circle). The earth has "ends", "corners", and "foundations". The earth is "stretched out" (something flat stretches out), it's "stretched out over nothing", and one can "stretch a measuring line across it" (as opposed to "around it"). It can also be seen from a single point in space (like only a flat object can).
Below are some of the many verses that describe the earth this way:
The earth has ends and can be seen from a single point in space:
Job 28:24 (JPT translation) For He looks to the ends of the earth, and He sees under all the heavens.
Like a flat object, the earth's middle is a single point above ground, and the tree standing on that point can be seen from all points on earth, even its "ends":
Daniel 4 (JPT) [The king saw] a tree in the midst of the earth, and its height was tremendous. The tree grew and became strong, and its height reached the sky, and its appearance [was seen] to the end of all the earth.
The earth is like a clay circle stamped under a flat seal, has corners, and can be measured with a line over/across it, as opposed to around it:
Job 38 (JPT):
I welcome you to compare the Hebrew above with the JPT translation that I provided, since other translations put it a bit differently.
The plants' creation before the sun's, the heavens' firmness, and the waters above them
In Genesis 1, the earth's plants are created before the sun, which is made on Day Four of Creation. The heavens are "beaten out" like a hard metal sheet, the sun and stars are fastened in them, and above them rests a body of liquid water (AKA the "water canopy"). The earth also sits on top of a mass of underground water. Then, according to Genesis, during the Great Flood, windows in the heavens opened and the waters poured down enough and burst up enough to flood the earth over the tallest mountains. Psalm 148 (JPT) also talks about the waters above the heavens:
- Praise Him, highest heavens and the water that is above the heavens.
- They shall praise the name of the Lord, for He commanded and they were created.
In the Great Flood, the water rose over the earth's tallest mountains for over a month, killing all animals and humans except for those whom Noah saved with his ark. The saved were Noah's families and the pairs of every animal kind on earth. After the flood, the animals and humans on board repopulated the earth.
This is hard to square with our knowledge of reality. The Great Flood happened about 1000 years before Moses' time, based on the Tanakh's chronology. We know from archeology that the indigenous Peruvians had a major civilization already 1700 years before Moses' time, and that Mesoamericans had settled their own region for millenia before then. It's hard to think that 1000 years before Moses these major cultures were wiped out and then humans returned there from Noah's descendants and restored the exact same culture with the same human DNA.
Even greater difficulty arises with the animals. Did flightless birds live in New Zealand for centuries before Noah's time, then get saved in Noah's Ark, regain their ability to fly, and then fly back to New Zealand where they lost their ability to fly again? Or maybe they rafted back and forth on driftwood? There are so many problems with taking this story factually that it looks like it is not factually true.
What are some possible responses to these depictions?
One is Inerrancy, whereby all such expressions are either (A) literally true no matter how unrealistic they sound, (B) figurative expressions and manners of speech, or (C) only meant as allegories. In such an explanation, there are no instances when the authors intended something factually true that later turned out to be factually mistaken.
So in order to promote their (A) Literal Factuality, one could point out that some scholars believe that there are masses of water underneath the earth.
Massive Underground 'Ocean' Probably The Source Of Our Surface Seas
Massive Underground 'Ocean' Probably The Source Of Our Surface Seas Kids News Article
In order to interpret (B) the verses as figurative expressions, one can point out that "to the ends of the earth" is an expression used even today in common speech, even though today people no longer believe that the earth is flat. Hence, such expressions could have been used in Tanakh without the writer actually considering the earth to be flat.
And to propose (C) that the stories are only meant allegorically, one could propose that Noah is an allegorical figure, his ark is allegorical, and the flood is allegorical. I am not aware of any place in Tanakh that spells out that "The Story of Noah's Ark and the Great Flood is nonfiction". I suppose that theoretically the stories of Job or Jonah could have been allegorical, just like the Song of Solomon might not have intended to narrate a real event where a doe literally looked through a window for her beloved. And in that case, I suppose that theoretically Noah's story could have been inserted as an allegory in the Tanakh's history of Abraham's ancestors.
Still, none of these answers seems to fully deal with the problem I posed at the message's beginning. The passages are very hard to all read as literally true. The earth isn't literally flat, it's hard to imagine the plants on earth as made before the sun, and it's hard to square Noah's Ark story with geology and biology. Occasionally, figures of speech do turn up in literature, but the expressions of a flat earth are given so frequently and expressions of the earth being a sphere are nonexistent, so it seems likely that sometimes the writer was expressing his understanding of a flat earth when he wrote these expressions.
Finally, the stories of Creation and Noah's Ark are narrated in a straightforward way as part of a chronology that leads to Abraham, Jacob, and Moses, so the plain reading suggests that it is meant as a real history of the Israelite nation's real ancestors.
However, let's say that the many references to a Flat Earth, the Creation story, or Noah's Ark are figures of speech or fictional allegories about the past or about the present reality. This conclusion then raises a question for me whether the appealing blessed promises about the future like Messiah's arrival, his blessed era, and the resurrection are also an array of figurative, metaphorical expressions and allegories. If the writers were factually mistaken or only allegorized the distant past and present reality, could the same easily be true about the blessed eschatological future?
Such an idea however that the Messiah concept or resurrection were only mistakes or only allegorical fictions would contradict Maimonides' principles that are recited in the Yigdal in this form:
Maimonides' 13 Principles of Jewish Faith
Footnote:
The reason I put this thread in the Judaism section is because the Tanakh is a Jewish sacred book. I am not asking the question in the thread rhetorically, nor am I proposing a particular solution. Rather, I prefer the blessed promises to be factually true and would like to see if such issues can be addressed successfully.
